TR Replies
Glad you two made it back in one piece, sounds intense- tree hugging, hmmm. I think you and joe are skilled tree huggers and probably had no problems with that. I am still working on that, being so new to the PNW.
Way to go get it guys!
Chris
Way to go get it guys!
Chris
John- shhh, don't encourage the lurkers to boot up our corn lines! I am sure they would have found out eventually :)
I am ready to get it again!
Looks like a great trip was had and I especially enjoy your sunset pic from the pinnacle castle area.
Chris
I am ready to get it again!
Looks like a great trip was had and I especially enjoy your sunset pic from the pinnacle castle area.
Chris
Great day out ron. It is an awesome area with lots of possibilities for chutes to be dropped and corn lines abound, thanks for showing me the goods!
I tried to upload pics but realized that it was not allowed. I did not get any good ones anyways- yours did not turn out well. You were living on the edge but looked like you were on a flat surface.
thanks for a great day out and I am looking forward to more. Let's do something similar this sunday, you down?
Ch...
I tried to upload pics but realized that it was not allowed. I did not get any good ones anyways- yours did not turn out well. You were living on the edge but looked like you were on a flat surface.
thanks for a great day out and I am looking forward to more. Let's do something similar this sunday, you down?
Ch...
The history was interesting Lowell. Good stuff.
KenR,
I believe if everyone roped up on descents down glaciers, there would be more issues because of that. To me, for the amount of people that ski on glaciers, the risk is minimal when going downhill. Your comparrison to avalanches doesn't hold for me. People die in avalanches all the time. Crevasse falls for people skiing down a glacier, such as mentioned in Lowell's piece are likely from people skiing into them...
KenR,
I believe if everyone roped up on descents down glaciers, there would be more issues because of that. To me, for the amount of people that ski on glaciers, the risk is minimal when going downhill. Your comparrison to avalanches doesn't hold for me. People die in avalanches all the time. Crevasse falls for people skiing down a glacier, such as mentioned in Lowell's piece are likely from people skiing into them...
Nice report, guys. Sounded like a great trip.
There's such great skiing in that area.
What a great snow year, eh?
We'll be skiing great corn 'til the new snow comes in the fall! 8)
There's such great skiing in that area.
What a great snow year, eh?
We'll be skiing great corn 'til the new snow comes in the fall! 8)
looks like you a fun outing. that is a beautiful spot. hiked it with rich last summer.
good work!
good work!
I thought the last pic that John posted was very special. I wish I had not been quite so lazy and had stayed up to watch the sunset. I took lot's of pics just prior and thought that I might have the best of it, but I was really wrong.
Besides taking pics for a VR panoramic, the goal of this trip was to test out my new snow stake growth retardant. It was a complete and abject failure. The darn things were growing at 3 inches a day, even when we planted them deep. John even tried...
Besides taking pics for a VR panoramic, the goal of this trip was to test out my new snow stake growth retardant. It was a complete and abject failure. The darn things were growing at 3 inches a day, even when we planted them deep. John even tried...
Mucho Danke.!
Nice report , i'll be sure and make good use of it.
Nice report , i'll be sure and make good use of it.
I had thought the reason the Cascades had a long history of few skier crevasse problems because of the maritime snowpack -- when really it was because so many took Walt's course.
I like the logic of his approach: He believes that skiing on a glacier is significantly risky -- therefore ski downhill roped, and learn to get good at it.
Ken
I like the logic of his approach: He believes that skiing on a glacier is significantly risky -- therefore ski downhill roped, and learn to get good at it.
Ken
Wow, lots of good discussion in this thread!
After posting the notes from my conversation with Walt Little, I pulled out my photocopy of the ski mountaineering handbook that Walt wrote for the Mountaineers' first ski mountaineering course in 1941-42. I have two editions of this handbook, one from the 1941-42 course (143 pages) and one from the 1942-43 course (71 pages). I photocopied them both from U.W. Special Collections, Accession 3272. I have not looked carefully at the diffe...
After posting the notes from my conversation with Walt Little, I pulled out my photocopy of the ski mountaineering handbook that Walt wrote for the Mountaineers' first ski mountaineering course in 1941-42. I have two editions of this handbook, one from the 1941-42 course (143 pages) and one from the 1942-43 course (71 pages). I photocopied them both from U.W. Special Collections, Accession 3272. I have not looked carefully at the diffe...
It would've been worth the extra 15 min. to summit if I'd known Monday would be yucky.
author=KenR link=topic=10137.msg40952#msg40952 date=1212069850]
My question is:
Now that we made it up the ascent without any crevasse bridges failing, why do we then feel confident to unrope for skiing down?
I can only speak for me, of course. IME, descending while roped presents an additional set of hazards, including: (a) increasing the likelihood of a second or third skier being pulled into a crevasse (see previous dis...
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=10137.msg40944#msg40944 date=1212034607]I thought Walt's observations about rope length were especially interesting.
Very interesting indeed. I assume that a rope in 1941-42 was significantly less dynamic than today's modern ropes, and thus the force on the arresting skier would have been greater back then, thus in theory corresponding to longer time/distance to team arrest. Although I often use a...
author=KenR link=topic=10137.msg40952#msg40952 date=1212069850]
My question is:
Now that we made it up the ascent without any crevasse bridges failing, why do we then feel confident to unrope for skiing down?
Confident isn't quite the word I would use, but instead I would say it would be 'less hazardous'. I think the reson behind not roping for a descent is based on simple physics. On a desc...
Hal Foss Peak looked like like a lovely ski when DC, MZ, and I want for Mystery. Good choice.
I was in this area yesterday, May 28. Here's an update on conditions:
I arrived at the Blue Lake trailhead shortly after 8:00. The weather overnight had been clear and cool, and the snow was firm to very firm (leaving minimal tracks) on the ascent. I had intended to skin to the col, but rapidly-forming black clouds convinced me to have lunch on the ridge a few hundred feet short of the col.
I had two enjoyable runs in the upper section, with a thin layer of softening...
I arrived at the Blue Lake trailhead shortly after 8:00. The weather overnight had been clear and cool, and the snow was firm to very firm (leaving minimal tracks) on the ascent. I had intended to skin to the col, but rapidly-forming black clouds convinced me to have lunch on the ridge a few hundred feet short of the col.
I had two enjoyable runs in the upper section, with a thin layer of softening...
author=Stugie link=topic=10137.msg40930#msg40930 date=1212013225]Despite the hindrances, I still feel the odds are much more in my favor to rope up on the up.
If there's any significant risk of crevasse-bridge failure, you usually are safer.
On the ascent.
My question is:
Now that we made it up the ascent without any crevasse bridges failing, why do we then feel confident to unrope for skiing down?
Although I'd agree that the leader has the most risk of falling, Amar was behind the leader on his partial crevasse fall last month on the White Salmon. From what I recall him saying, he saw a small dark hole created where Jeff broke trail, so there was some evidence that something was there.
KenR, thanks for your observations from the European perspective. I spent my first time there on glaciers this April. My impression was that the standard approach to rescue was to call for help and get hauled out of a crevasse by helicopter (I think they fund rescue support differently). So much for the z-pulley. I was told that there had been 40 crevasse rescues this season (as of mid-April) and 3 deaths. The glaciers and crevasse hazards were on a much greater scale compared with what I...
Thanks for sharing! Lowell, you've met with some really neat people and groups to do some great things in the PNW. As for the Mountianeers and how the fundamentals have changed in the mountains, I find the observations about rope length really interesting too...I think now (at least according to the latest Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills edition) they recommend 3 people on a 120 ft. rope, also aknowledging "where truly humongous crevasses exist - the H...
Yes David, if it were not for the tripod attached to Victor, I would be at a loss to capture such photos. ;)
Thanks Joe, it was nice to run into you again up there! :)
Thanks Joe, it was nice to run into you again up there! :)
A little historical perspective. I interviewed Walt Little in March 2001 and asked him about the ski mountaineering course he started for The Mountaineers before WWII. Walt was the grandfather of ski mountaineering instruction in the Northwest. Here are some notes from our conversation. Walt was recalling events 60 years earlier, but he was a sharp guy, so I presume that his memory was mostly accurate:
"Rotten luck" when you got a summit and May freshies??? Bad weather, good push. :)
I'll add my thanks to RJ and MD for a fun trip, thanks. Jerry, great fun skiing from the top with you. ;D ;D ;D Jerry and I survived the down climb of the narrow ridge in ski boots ::) and then skied the climbers alternate route back to the hogsback. The snow was good and smooth and had softened to nice corn for the descent. We all returned to the hut in time to enjoy the sunset from the "smart table" overlooking Timberline and the mountains and valley's to the South.
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=10137.msg40932#msg40932 date=1212017918]
I don't think that was a skier's fall. I think the person who fell in was walking.
As stugie had stated before we were up there that day and talked with the group for a few minutes. They were bootpacking up to the low saddle when she fell into the crevasse and there were no skis at there camp.
The difficulty of team arrest is a point that I've considered with regards to this scenario. While there was some softish wind-drifted snow over the glacier that day, it was quite firm to icy under that. I am a graduate of the Mountaineers Glacier Travel/Crevasse Rescue class, during which we practiced arresting crevasse type falls. It seemed reasonable to arrest in such a situation, but our practice was conducted in soft, spring like snow conditions. Ski edges seem like a prime tool to arr...
author=Big Steve link=topic=10137.msg40935#msg40935 date=1212020915]
My principal points are that: (a) the difficulty of team arrest while on skis is a factor that should be considered when deciding on roping strategy; and (b) even very experienced ski mountaineers may not realize just how difficult it is to team arrest, having never tried to do so. How to apply factor (a) is situational.
Excellent points.
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=10137.msg40932#msg40932 date=1212017918] I don't think that was a skier's fall. I think the person who fell in was walking.
Lowell, my interpretation of the account was that she was wearing skis when she fell. I recall some reference to skin tracks leading to the hole she created when she punched through.
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=10137.msg40932#msg40932...
Good seeing you in the parking lot and your crack of noon start did not hamper your efforts.
I am surprised that snow lake is still passable.
Nice well written report and pictures.
I am surprised that snow lake is still passable.
Nice well written report and pictures.
author=Big Steve link=topic=10137.msg40926#msg40926 date=1212006421">
Also, a skier's fall on the Coleman was reported on TAY last year: http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=7348.0
That one hit close to home for me because I have dangled for a few frightening seconds over a crevasse by my arm pits on the Colema...
Some discussion of the same topic here-
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/796283#Post796283
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/796283#Post796283
We were one of the groups behind the said "crevasse fall" group that day on baker. We were roped up, but had debated. We always rope up for the ascent, if on glaciated terrain, and that event helped to solidify that mentality. Even with skis, you can still manuever fairly easily with an axe in hand. On the down, no rope. Not unless you're belaying for a highly prone avy area or rappelling to a line. Although team arresting on skis is more difficult than without, I prefer the...
Lisa - You've got an amazing ability to set up the camera for those self portrait ski shots every time ;)
Nice work.
Nice work.
Figured I'd better get my pics posted for this trip before the month closed out.
As Jeanette mentioned above, several of the "non-summiters" on this trip climbed up to the crater and skied the White River Glacier and associated drainage down to Hwy 35. Several have asked for more info on that ski line hence the following track map to accompany the info:
As Jeanette mentioned above, several of the "non-summiters" on this trip climbed up to the crater and skied the White River Glacier and associated drainage down to Hwy 35. Several have asked for more info on that ski line hence the following track map to accompany the info:
Thanks a bunch!! I was confused about the map as well. I think it is less critical when there is snow all the way to the road!!
Lauds to all the experienced contributors to this thread.
I am compelled to contribute the following:
Team arrest while on skis is very difficult, even impossible in some circumstances, especially when equipped with only ski poles or a Whippet. If you don't believe me, try it. I am persuaded that, in the rare event that a roped skier falls in a crevasse, there is a substantial risk of a team member being pulled into the same crevasse. Thus, I have surmised that, i...
I am compelled to contribute the following:
Team arrest while on skis is very difficult, even impossible in some circumstances, especially when equipped with only ski poles or a Whippet. If you don't believe me, try it. I am persuaded that, in the rare event that a roped skier falls in a crevasse, there is a substantial risk of a team member being pulled into the same crevasse. Thus, I have surmised that, i...
Doh!!! My camera erased all the pictures I took! Such a bummer. Yes I do blame the camera.
Nice meeting you guys though. That was sweet run!
-Pete
Nice meeting you guys though. That was sweet run!
-Pete
We definitely had some "wet", but we couldn't quite rope in the rowdy factor; rather, the stoke factor!
author=powdrx link=topic=10035.msg40917#msg40917 date=1211995261]
So did you make it up Silver Star?? Is it worth the bush below?? I would like to get out there this weekend if the trip is worth the $$$ for gasoline!!
Thanks!!
We didn't make it up the peak. It took us a while with the thrashing through the blow-down and by the time we were getting up above it, we had lost a lot of time and also found clouds sitti...
Dude, I'm bummed I missed it. I swear though Kyle, you have yet to get hooked on surfing and climbing! ;) Glad Dan got to get out too, and get a new face on Team Cascadia. Nice pics! Climbing in vantage and Rush concert this weekend, then we're in the thick of it again!
So did you make it up Silver Star?? Is it worth the bush below?? I would like to get out there this weekend if the trip is worth the $$$ for gasoline!!
Thanks!!
Thanks!!
Then there's this fundamental "strangeness" about roping for climbing up on lots of ski tours:
* the forces on the snow surface tend to be stronger when skiing down.
* the crevasse bridges tend to be weaker at the time of day skiing down.
* navigation tends to be less careful while skiing down.
* sometimes a separate descent route has more crevasses than the up-route (because we chose not to climb up it because of risk of serac fall).
* the forces on the snow surface tend to be stronger when skiing down.
* the crevasse bridges tend to be weaker at the time of day skiing down.
* navigation tends to be less careful while skiing down.
* sometimes a separate descent route has more crevasses than the up-route (because we chose not to climb up it because of risk of serac fall).
Here's a couple of my pics: first one is Khanh skiing the main south face of Kaleetan. I can't get over that she's a skiing newbie and only her 2nd year bc skiing ! this girl rocks 8)
2nd one is Oyvind, he's so good he levitates on his skis like this ;)
My brother Erik from Missoula was in town and a good sport to go out with us on just his second bc trip ~ Fun to show him what I'm up to. Thanks ever...
2nd one is Oyvind, he's so good he levitates on his skis like this ;)
My brother Erik from Missoula was in town and a good sport to go out with us on just his second bc trip ~ Fun to show him what I'm up to. Thanks ever...
Good to see a new generation of folks grabbing those 14'ers...the Rockies still ROCK!
Go Buffs...Class of '90!
-Bill
Go Buffs...Class of '90!
-Bill
Enticing TR. A remarkable couloir indeed, well done! 8)
:). I opened the post, mind already digging through cobwebs for Grays' true summit elevation, and found something better than a simple TR from the standard route - good job :).
A wonderful descent and TR. ;)
Good job Ron and gang!
Was just thinking about that tour that day and wha-lah there is a report!
It must have been good if Ron had to do the report. And a fine report I might ad!
Way to get it-those chutes look tasty!
Was just thinking about that tour that day and wha-lah there is a report!
It must have been good if Ron had to do the report. And a fine report I might ad!
Way to get it-those chutes look tasty!
author=David_Coleman link=topic=10153.msg40799#msg40799 date=1211742591]
So much for the bad weather, we had sun the entire day
So much for the wet and rowdy weekend!
:)
Nice TR. It sounds like a great ski!
Nice job guys,
Thanks for the pics on TGR. It really gives an idea on the snowpack of a tour we are planning.
Way to hit it hard! Keep digging out the outhouses and Park Service should give you a season pass to the parks for that work.
Thanks for the pics on TGR. It really gives an idea on the snowpack of a tour we are planning.
Way to hit it hard! Keep digging out the outhouses and Park Service should give you a season pass to the parks for that work.