TR Replies
author=dberdinka link=topic=21155.msg90622#msg90622 date=1308165500]Pierre wrote....."Every year we hear about unroped skiers skiing into crevasses."
Do we hear about this every year? I know the guy died on Rainier (skinning up) but it seems to me that people skiing into crevasses on the way down is a surprising rare to almost non-existent event.
Summer 2009, probably June 30. I remember this one really well b/c...
I don't think the knots are a good idea. Forces are concentrated in knots, which can provide a convenient place for rope failure.
If you rig the ascenders beforehand, you shouldn't have to worry about dropping one.
If you rig the ascenders beforehand, you shouldn't have to worry about dropping one.
author=dberdinka link=topic=21155.msg90622#msg90622 date=1308165500]
Pierre wrote....."Every year we hear about unroped skiers skiing into crevasses."
Do we hear about this every year? I know the guy died on Rainier (skinning up) but it seems to me that people skiing into crevasses on the way down is a surprising rare to almost non-existent event.
I would say yes, a quick google search for 2011 (once yo...
I have done away with the concept of prussiks. Instead I carry the extra weight of two basic petzl ascenders....and basically use the "cowboy" method. I found I like the use of the cowboy method of getting out of a potential hole.
Pro:
They are faster to set up when you are in the crevasse.
Mucho easier to set up with gloves on.
They can be used in z pulley and c pulley systems--and work MUCH better, especially if you are alone and hauling out a fr...
Pro:
They are faster to set up when you are in the crevasse.
Mucho easier to set up with gloves on.
They can be used in z pulley and c pulley systems--and work MUCH better, especially if you are alone and hauling out a fr...
Another point to consider, particularly this time of year, is that the rope will bite deeply into the lip.
Regardless of whether you have knots or not there is a very significant chance that you will not be able to haul out the victim on the weighted rope due to friction, not to mention the fact the vicitm will get pulled into the lip eventually (I believe there was a fatality in AK resulting from crushing the victim into the snow while attempting to haul them out)
Soluti...
Regardless of whether you have knots or not there is a very significant chance that you will not be able to haul out the victim on the weighted rope due to friction, not to mention the fact the vicitm will get pulled into the lip eventually (I believe there was a fatality in AK resulting from crushing the victim into the snow while attempting to haul them out)
Soluti...
author=TobyT link=topic=21155.msg90597#msg90597 date=1308147992]
Roman, what is your thought process on an unresponsive person in the crevasse?
-Consider this situation,
-You fall in, your partner arrests your fall with the aid of knots. You hit your head on crevasse wall 10' down and are unconscious and stay that way. You are dressed in a light soft shell and become hypothermic. Your partner can't haul you up because there are knot...
author=Pierce link=topic=21155.msg90601#msg90601 date=1308150015]
I guess we can all think of a million hypothetical scenarios and how best to respond to them, and there is no single way to approach each scenario. However, it is interesting to debate the pros and cons of each method...
Sucks about the lady who fell into the "waterfall". Sounds miserable.
That is true, there are many scenarios.
Af...
THANKS FOR THE INFO...By the way coming up from bend, where or how (and easiest way ) to get permits? How much?
author=James Wells link=topic=21155.msg90580#msg90580 date=1308110305]
A possibly mitigating factor - infrequently used prusiks have a tendency to slip down a rope especially if they are not sized correctly with respect to the main rope (the prusiks need to be a little smaller). Knots in the main rope could make it harder to go up but reduce the risk of slipping down.
I have a friend who had his prusiks slip out of control down a pit (in a cave) an...
Sweet -- I love that mod. Shop tinkering is always fun, which is part of why I like the TTS, I think... If I ever find my other ski I'll have to look at some of your changes again...
Anyway, great TR.
Anyway, great TR.
thanks mack, I am just sticking my toe in the trip report world.
jibber, ty too.
Nice pic Mofro! I never saw the bear myself.... but Matt had the same experience as you. The bear just looked at him calmly, then took off up the trail til it scared the shit out of Dan, who thought the sound of the bear was Matt catching up to him on the trail until he looked behind him... and saw the bear.
Marcus... those chain link bindings are bulletproof. I am thinking about s...
jibber, ty too.
Nice pic Mofro! I never saw the bear myself.... but Matt had the same experience as you. The bear just looked at him calmly, then took off up the trail til it scared the shit out of Dan, who thought the sound of the bear was Matt catching up to him on the trail until he looked behind him... and saw the bear.
Marcus... those chain link bindings are bulletproof. I am thinking about s...
I almost skied into that adolescent bear on the way out of IG on June 5th.
I yelled at him and waved my poles, then had to back track a few hundred feet since he was pretty much content to saunter on his way towards the river. Typical teenager.
I yelled at him and waved my poles, then had to back track a few hundred feet since he was pretty much content to saunter on his way towards the river. Typical teenager.
Nice Frank, great report. Were you on your chain-link-NTNs? How are they holding up?
TobyT - I think we can all think of scenarios that highlight flaws in each method.
(example - Two roped climbers, one of which has a crevasse fall and is rendered unconcious. Arresting climber is unable (for whatever reason) to build anchor and unweight and free from rope, remains trapped in self arrest position. The same fate befalls unconscious climber as situation with knotted rope, with the added problem arresting climber cannot go for help).
I think each of us who...
(example - Two roped climbers, one of which has a crevasse fall and is rendered unconcious. Arresting climber is unable (for whatever reason) to build anchor and unweight and free from rope, remains trapped in self arrest position. The same fate befalls unconscious climber as situation with knotted rope, with the added problem arresting climber cannot go for help).
I think each of us who...
Roman, what is your thought process on an unresponsive person in the crevasse?
-Consider this situation,
-You fall in, your partner arrests your fall with the aid of knots. You hit your head on crevasse wall 10' down and are unconscious and stay that way. You are dressed in a light soft shell and become hypothermic. Your partner can't haul you up because there are knots in the rope and doesn't trust the anchors available to hold both of your body weights (to desc...
-Consider this situation,
-You fall in, your partner arrests your fall with the aid of knots. You hit your head on crevasse wall 10' down and are unconscious and stay that way. You are dressed in a light soft shell and become hypothermic. Your partner can't haul you up because there are knots in the rope and doesn't trust the anchors available to hold both of your body weights (to desc...
I have used the knots in the rope technique with my wife while climbing on glaciers. You can feel the knots get hung up on suncups so they will probably help quite a bit if they get caught in soft snow when the rope digs into the lip. A good way to use this technique is to divide the rope into thirds, tie in on each side of the middle third , then tie the knots in the middle third. Each person then keeps a third on a coil with them to drop into the crevasse to pull the other climber out or to...
Thank you Lisa. I wasn't sure how much snow has melted since I was last up on the 21st of May
Fun report tele.skier. Nice job.
Sounds like all the classic mini-challenges of touring: bacon-ear sunburn (done that), mangled toes (done that), gear challenges (yep), snow bridge collapses into stream/river (check), and bear joins touring party - uh, nope that one's new. Guess you must have been an attractive group to bring out the big guy; I hear bacon will do that with bears. Note to self...
Sounds like all the classic mini-challenges of touring: bacon-ear sunburn (done that), mangled toes (done that), gear challenges (yep), snow bridge collapses into stream/river (check), and bear joins touring party - uh, nope that one's new. Guess you must have been an attractive group to bring out the big guy; I hear bacon will do that with bears. Note to self...
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=21155.msg90574#msg90574 date=1308106091]
It would be interesting to know more about these sources. The latest text I have is Backcountry Skiing by Volken, Schell and Wheeler. They don't teach the use of knots in the rope.
Craig Connally, The Mountaineering Handbook: Modern Tools and Techniques that Will Take You to the Top, Ragged Mountain Press, 2005 -- page 331.
Mark...
Another technique when using stopper knots is to climb out using a pair of "aiders"( I have a pair of lightweight alpine aiders that don't weight much) and clipping the loops on the stopper knots( like clipping fixed gear while aid climbing) while stabilizing yourself with a fifi hook connected to your harness .This assumes you have the stopper knots close enough apart to allow clipping your top aider while standing in the lower. Not as ideal as a knot free rope and prussiks, but...
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=21155.msg90574#msg90574 date=1308106091">
It would be interesting to know more about these sources. The latest text I have is Backcountry Skiing by Volken, Schell and Wheeler. They don't teach the use of knots in the rope.
It's in "Alpine Climbing" by Mark Houston and Kathy Cosley. They call them
author=James Wells link=topic=21155.msg90580#msg90580 date=1308110305">
Prusiks have been replaced almost across the board for use in caves by mechanical ascenders that don't generally have this problem; I think that prusiks are still used widely in crevasse kits only because mechanical ascenders weigh too much.
I have a set of Petzl Tiblocs, which...
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=21155.msg90574#msg90574 date=1308106091]
Self-rescue using prussiks would be a lot harder too. .... Maneuvering the upper prussik around a knot could be really tiring.
A possibly mitigating factor - infrequently used prusiks have a tendency to slip down a rope especially if they are not sized correctly with respect to the main rope (the prusiks need to be a little smaller). Knots in the main ro...
Good report and welcome to the exciting world of TAY-writing.
author=Roman Rodyakin link=topic=21155.msg90539#msg90539 date=1308082966]
Re knots in the rope, I believe it's a common technique for two-person roped glacier travel -- I have seen it recommended in a number of respected climbing texts by respected authors.
It would be interesting to know more about these sources. The latest text I have is Backcountry Skiing by Volken, Schell and Wheeler. They don't teach the use of kn...
Me? That hanging, exposed summit snowfield is what gets me. That looks intense.
Nice.
Nice.
Nice Scott!
that walk across log crossing in boots looks like a challange!
that walk across log crossing in boots looks like a challange!
Good looking crew, Amar.
Sounds like everyone had the timing down except Robie . . .
Sounds like everyone had the timing down except Robie . . .
way to go you guys!!! awesome pix .. even if they aren't fm afar scott ;)
As always, Amar, a stellar TR.
This photo
reminded me of the "Crevasse Angels" poster that Jerry White did of Allyson, Cinnamon, and Monika a few years ago for the Glacier Travel cla...
This photo
author=Amar Andalkar link=topic=21148.msg90468#msg90468 date=1308001162]
I did not ask them to pose like that!
reminded me of the "Crevasse Angels" poster that Jerry White did of Allyson, Cinnamon, and Monika a few years ago for the Glacier Travel cla...
dennyt - I think we must have seen you. I was with a group of 4 and ended up on the same ridge. See my report for our little tour. Really good coditions that day.
lowell - I think you blew by us on the trail on the way up. We saw you descending the bowl. Looked great!
lowell - I think you blew by us on the trail on the way up. We saw you descending the bowl. Looked great!
Interesting. To each his own! Thanks for the TR. The corn on that side of the mtn. is prime!
Re knots in the rope, I believe it's a common technique for two-person roped glacier travel -- I have seen it recommended in a number of respected climbing texts by respected authors. The reasoning is basically that it adds to the friction during a typical crevasse fall and therefore reduces the force necessary to arrest the fall. While I personally have not measured the forces in knotted vs. non-knotted rope, it seems obvious to me that in any reasonably soft snow a knot does g...
author=Marcus link=topic=21158.msg90529#msg90529 date=1308072306]
Nice Mark! Glad you ticked off the last of the days...
I added a link to some pics!
Phil, nice meeting you too. I didn't have a lot of hope for TAY partners wanted section, but it does apparently deliver, even on a Friday afternoon. Great trip, efficient pace, equipment in sync between the two of us, just enough clouds to provide an occasional shade and dramatize the views, but not enough to impair the visibility or route finding. Everything was pretty perfect -- we even hit the upper mountain at the right time...yay for the long summer days -- come to t...
author=old guy link=topic=21155.msg90533#msg90533 date=1308076959]
I was so afraid of that....Another point is if you are soloing with this technique think about how you would exit the crevasse when you try to turn the edge. As you ascend up the rope you will reach a point where you can't go any further up without pulling the knot out of the slot it is caught in.
The only way I have seen used successfully to self belay on a glacier is by standing...
Did you have another rope? If you have another rope (and the person with the rope was still on top) then your system could be ok. Otherwise, think of how the knots would get in the way of the people pulling you out (or you ascending the rope). You can't pull a knot through a pulley when hauling. And you would have to rewrap or reposition your ascender at each knot when ascending. A PITA in an already difficult situation.
I was so afraid of that. Bear Grills said the same thing on his survival show. He tied knots in a parachute cord as his belay!
If you think about it there isn't enough weight on the end of the line to enable the knots to cut into the lip of a crevasse. If you have 4 or 5 feet between the knots think about the force generated prior to the knot hitting the edge; there is only a very, very small chance that the knot will catch.
Another point is if you are sol...
If you think about it there isn't enough weight on the end of the line to enable the knots to cut into the lip of a crevasse. If you have 4 or 5 feet between the knots think about the force generated prior to the knot hitting the edge; there is only a very, very small chance that the knot will catch.
Another point is if you are sol...
author=old guy link=topic=21155.msg90531#msg90531 date=1308075206]
In your second photo are those knots in your rope, and if so what are they for?
Thanks.
I just read about this in the Mountaineers Alpine Climbing book ... the knots will help to hang up on the lip of a crevasse if one falls in.
In your second photo are those knots in your rope, and if so what are they for?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Nice Mark! Glad you ticked off the last of the days...
Very nice. I considered posting a report of my trip there from the day before, but maybe I'll just file it in here...
I came in from the west, starting up Hwy 242 by bike Wednesday afternoon, then skiing along the Obsidian Trail (upper gate closed, but road plowed all the way to the trailhead and farther). I stopped overnight on the lava flow, then climbed Middle via Renfrew on Thursday. The turns back down from the saddle on that west slope were excellent -- an easy descent, whi...
I came in from the west, starting up Hwy 242 by bike Wednesday afternoon, then skiing along the Obsidian Trail (upper gate closed, but road plowed all the way to the trailhead and farther). I stopped overnight on the lava flow, then climbed Middle via Renfrew on Thursday. The turns back down from the saddle on that west slope were excellent -- an easy descent, whi...
Nice photos, Matt. Loved the shot of the volcanoes stretching as far as the eye could see.