TR Replies
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=30908.msg129685#msg129685 date=1393536331]
I haven't bought tights yet, but it's tempting. I think buying racing skis this season may have started me down a slippery slope (after skinning up it first, of course). ;)
The negative reactions to skimo racing are amusing. I mean, does anybody think wearing lycra for bike racing is weird anymore? Nah, I didn't think so. The thing that amazes me is how far ah...
I would like to thank Shawnskis for his very brave, very important, most excellent and valuable post.
I do not have alot to add to "the meat" of this thread, but can offer some personal experience in regards to *Guide is pronounced "guide", not "god."
I was instructed by an experienced Canadian Mountain Ski guide to "follow my traverse and ski right of the tracks"
Well I did just that and triggered a slab with 3-4 foot crown which ran...
I do not have alot to add to "the meat" of this thread, but can offer some personal experience in regards to *Guide is pronounced "guide", not "god."
I was instructed by an experienced Canadian Mountain Ski guide to "follow my traverse and ski right of the tracks"
Well I did just that and triggered a slab with 3-4 foot crown which ran...
Thanks for your perspective, snowdog. As others have said, this thread is of great value IMO. I encourage the OP to respond; I hope he/she feels comfortable coming back.
I wanted to add my voice to those empathizing with the OP. I heartily agree with many of the crit...
author=Charlie Hagedorn link=topic=30926.msg129681#msg129681 date=1393532454]
We should be cautious working backward from accident narratives to criticism.
I wanted to add my voice to those empathizing with the OP. I heartily agree with many of the crit...
author=aaron_wright link=topic=30926.msg129695#msg129695 date=1393544157]
I don't know if I've ever heard Ruedi described as "one of the best avalanche experts in the world". I don't think anyone here has claimed to be an expert, most, including myself, realize we aren't so would exercise a bit more self discipline and restraint. A lot of the folks posting here likely have decades more experience than the OP. Even if the NWAC com...
author=Good2Go link=topic=30926.msg129688#msg129688 date=1393539454]
Totally disagree. Cookie is miscasting the OP's basis for including their reasoning for being in that spot at that time in the TR, and even worse, describing it as "low skill". And his tone is condescending. If one of the best avy experts in world Ruedi Beglinger can't accurately predict the danger of a deeply buried instability, then certainly none of the folks on this...
Cookie's comment that the party was "most certainly not following best practises at all," seems completely out of line. In fact they did many things right: pre-trip research, equipped with appropriate gear, discussion of the conditions, safe travel in avalanche country, transitioning in a protected area. In fact, the decision to transition on an intentionally chosen terrain island was likely what prevented injury. I shudder to think that most of the terrain islands I choose wou...
Thanks for chiming in on your reasons for skiing the slot. I agree that exiting the treelike is where the first bit of concern would be for me on that route in these conditions but I would also have had reservations about the exit after skiing the slot.
I wonder if persistent weak layer is the right term for the slide we are talking about. In my mind it was all one big storm system and rather than looking at it differently from a trickier continental snowpack mindset I just viewed it...
I wonder if persistent weak layer is the right term for the slide we are talking about. In my mind it was all one big storm system and rather than looking at it differently from a trickier continental snowpack mindset I just viewed it...
I don't know if I've ever heard Ruedi described as "one of the best avalanche experts in the world". I don't think anyone here has claimed to be an expert, most, including myself, realize we aren't so would exercise a bit more self discipline and restraint. A lot of the folks posting here likely have decades more experience than the OP. Even if the NWAC completely omitted and mention of PWLs and deep slab instability, they certainly mentioned wind and st...
Thought I would add to this since I was the one who posted the Slot trip report and I just saw this long series of comments.
First, i'm sure glad the three of you were not injuried and made it back safely.
Second, kudos for writing such an excellent report and to all others who have commented to make this an important lesson for all of us.
As to conditions in the Slot and why we decided to ski it, our thoughts, right or wrong, were that it would probably be...
First, i'm sure glad the three of you were not injuried and made it back safely.
Second, kudos for writing such an excellent report and to all others who have commented to make this an important lesson for all of us.
As to conditions in the Slot and why we decided to ski it, our thoughts, right or wrong, were that it would probably be...
Go ski it....me, I would still wait a bit, and it would depend on recent weather conditions, time of day, etc.
I wonder what Ruedi would say he learned from that horrible accident.....poor bastard probably eats, sleeps and breathes it everyday of his life.
I wonder what Ruedi would say he learned from that horrible accident.....poor bastard probably eats, sleeps and breathes it everyday of his life.
I have really been digging spandex on the last couple of warm volcano tours. It breathes so good but also keeps you warm when you need it. Those guys know what's up! Spandex is also superior for skintrack yoga breaks
author=kerwinl link=topic=30926.msg129684#msg129684 date=1393535569">
Very good post, very constructive. The points made about experience level are very sobering, and reminded me of this paper put out in 2000 by Ian McCammon. This quote out of the summary is worth considering.
"Avalanche training did not appear to decrease the hazards
that groups exposed themselves to, and in the case of vic -
tims with basic training, hazard expo...
I think the statement is right on for that weekend, and the "generous" statement fits given the uncertainty. As is evident from my other posts, I think the route choice comes nowhere near that.
Shanski posted in the spirit of generating a healthy conversation. Again, thanks for doing so! In that spirit, I want to ask about this phrase from one of CookieMonster's posts:
What do folks think about this as a generally stated goal for the sort of terrain you'd want to be on this past weekend? Right on? Too much caution for you personally with the inclusion of t...
...appropriate terrain that included a generous margin of safety...
What do folks think about this as a generally stated goal for the sort of terrain you'd want to be on this past weekend? Right on? Too much caution for you personally with the inclusion of t...
I haven't bought tights yet, but it's tempting. I think buying racing skis this season may have started me down a slippery slope (after skinning up it first, of course). ;)
The negative reactions to skimo racing are amusing. I mean, does anybody think wearing lycra for bike racing is weird anymore? Nah, I didn't think so. The thing that amazes me is how far ahead the Europeans are when it comes to skiing fast and how long they've been out there.
For me...
The negative reactions to skimo racing are amusing. I mean, does anybody think wearing lycra for bike racing is weird anymore? Nah, I didn't think so. The thing that amazes me is how far ahead the Europeans are when it comes to skiing fast and how long they've been out there.
For me...
author=CookieMonster link=topic=30926.msg129637#msg129637 date=1393515252">
You are exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly right. The parties involved appeared or believed they were following best practices of avalanche education. When in fact they most certainly were not following best practises at all. The point of my earlier remarks is that best practises cannot make up for fundamental errors, such as poor choice of objective. Best practises are p...
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=30926.msg129649#msg129649 date=1393518800]
Klassen was absolutely right, and even NWAC wasn't entirely on top of this.
I have to say ALL OF US have been very lucky have this hazard demonstrated so vividly without anybody getting hurt. shawnskis should be thanked for bringing this discussion into the open by reporting his party's experience.
Absolutely!
Whether or...
Excellent TR. Thank you for making the effort. Glad it wasn't any worse than it was for everyone involved.
Couple of thoughts.
"Firstly, I learned that very well respected guides, were skiing with their clients on similar terrain last Saturday."
Which should make one realise no one has a perfect handle on this stuff.
I have been skiing Crystal and Alpental almost every day for the last two weeks. Some of it BC but not much intentionall...
Couple of thoughts.
"Firstly, I learned that very well respected guides, were skiing with their clients on similar terrain last Saturday."
Which should make one realise no one has a perfect handle on this stuff.
I have been skiing Crystal and Alpental almost every day for the last two weeks. Some of it BC but not much intentionall...
We should be cautious working backward from accident narratives to criticism. It's easy to see how this trip report could've been a jubilant one, with great skiing all day long. If the party had started an hour earlier, they'd have missed the slide almost entirely, perhaps not even seeing it until the return from Roosevelt. An hour later, and they'd have cool photos of the big slide and crown that appeared an hour before. Ten minutes earlier, and it'd have been worse.
My first exposure to avalanche risk mitigation was in Colorado. Such an objective in that kind of snowpack, in midwinter, with a considerable rating, would be considered foolhardy.
The Cascade snowpack is different, but after the winter you've had, the avy report and the storm conditions of the past week I think the objective was ill-advised.
The Cascade snowpack is different, but after the winter you've had, the avy report and the storm conditions of the past week I think the objective was ill-advised.
author=Good2Go link=topic=30926.msg129675#msg129675 date=1393530510]
So as it turns out the forecast DID NOT mention any deep instability at Chair Peak, but all of you wanna-be avalanche experts are castigating the OP for ignoring that guidance? As I recall the NWAC forecast was "considerable" that day (just like it is pretty much every day there is good pow to ski). There were no other natural slides in the area, and sluffs weren't stepping d...
G2G, if you read the NWAC reports as the final word you would be correct, but there existed plenty of signs that DPC existed in the region (that there was old snow from early season sitting on top of soils and rock upon which boatloads of new snow was sitting...).
NWAC should be part of a matrix and not depended upon as the sole base of one's decison making. Regional trends do not count so much at the local level.
"You don't need a weatherman to see which...
NWAC should be part of a matrix and not depended upon as the sole base of one's decison making. Regional trends do not count so much at the local level.
"You don't need a weatherman to see which...
Nice report, glad everyone survived.
I'm not sure if this was mentioned, please forgive me if it was.
1. What is the avalanche education and BC Skiing experience level of the individuals in the group? Maybe an opportunity to take some additional education?
2. Was there discussion of crossing the North aspect of Chair Peak with your guide friend or did the conversation only include the original and shorter plan?
Something new I learned from a shor...
I'm not sure if this was mentioned, please forgive me if it was.
1. What is the avalanche education and BC Skiing experience level of the individuals in the group? Maybe an opportunity to take some additional education?
2. Was there discussion of crossing the North aspect of Chair Peak with your guide friend or did the conversation only include the original and shorter plan?
Something new I learned from a shor...
author=savegondor link=topic=30940.msg129671#msg129671 date=1393529945]
if I had a sled...i'd really want to go up chiwawa river rd. looks like multiple wide open slopes with good tree options up to 8k. I'm drooling. I need a sled. I want to start a sled co-op. I'm desperate for sled. Will bring beer.
PM me if you get a sled. We have lots of spots to ski around Salmon la Sac that have pretty much zero avy ex...
So as it turns out the forecast DID NOT mention any deep instability at Chair Peak, but all of you wanna-be avalanche experts are castigating the OP for ignoring that guidance? As I recall the NWAC forecast was "considerable" that day (just like it is pretty much every day there is good pow to ski). There were no other natural slides in the area, and sluffs weren't stepping down. Seems like a case of bad luck to me, as opposed to an obvious result of decision mak...
Cool TR! I've got a sled we go out every weekend, usually Salmon la Sac and the Teanaway. PM me if you want to join in.
author=savegondor link=topic=30940.msg129670#msg129670 date=1393529363]
I'd be in for some sled access skiing. Question: how far up Foss River toward Hinman can you get? and/or toward Lennox just south of Skykomish? or Mt David? Clarke?
if I had a sled...i'd really want to go up chiwawa river rd. looks like multiple wide open slopes with good tree options up to 8k. I'm drooling. I need a sled...
I'd be in for some sled access skiing. Question: how far up Foss River toward Hinman can you get? and/or toward Lennox just south of Skykomish? or Mt David? Clarke?
It was a great weekend. With 14.5k' in two days, exploring new lines almost every run, and superb conditions, I was torn between wanting to document some of the fun without getting in the way of excellent skiing.
Edit:
https://vimeo.com/m/87838480
Edit:
https://vimeo.com/m/87838480
Gregg, thanks for you thoughts. The winter landscape is so dynamic and at times inscrutable, but it keeps pulling us back...
... so off I go to ski.
... so off I go to ski.
Simply put:
The leader made a conscious choice to put their party in a big slide path, underneath a massive loading zone soon after a huge snow/wind event, despite warnings.
This doesn't seem to be a matter of risk tolerance/acceptance; just recklessness, inexperience or ignorance.
I wonder if he/she would have made a similar choice if the hazard was more apparent and observable...such as the risk of avalanche due to springtime daily warming.
The leader made a conscious choice to put their party in a big slide path, underneath a massive loading zone soon after a huge snow/wind event, despite warnings.
This doesn't seem to be a matter of risk tolerance/acceptance; just recklessness, inexperience or ignorance.
I wonder if he/she would have made a similar choice if the hazard was more apparent and observable...such as the risk of avalanche due to springtime daily warming.
author=kamtron link=topic=30926.msg129525#msg129525 date=1393438434]
When I saw the report from the Slot, 2 things crossed my mind:
1) Those lucky *****s! I bet the skiing was awesome.
2) That was not the kind of terrain I chose to be in on Saturday.
The Slot, more than any other serious tours I know, tends to get hit early after the storm. I think people are "getting away with it" more often that they might know. However,...
hahahaha...choom wagon. i'm going to have to borrow that one. reminds me of the van scene from fast times at ridgmont high. good stuff!
mc kook out.
mc kook out.
author=T. Eastman link=topic=30926.msg129658#msg129658 date=1393522158]
Gregg, this is for all purposes, the analysis of the accident. A formal report will be issued by folks that will write a dry, "what went down" set of observations. The real deal is going on here in TAY where people are saying what they think, admitting to their own near misses, and describing their logic in their choices for dealing with deep persistent crap (DPC).
That question about TRs and how it influences people's sense of the risk level is an interesting and good one. And my thoughts on it are what led me to quote Lowell just above. It is a gift to the community to share info about the negatives in addition to the positives, including that it's a reminder that lack of negatives does not mean people weren't just getting lucky this time.
author=blackdog102395 link=topic=30926.msg129656#msg129656...
The place for bluntness should come later, after there is an analysis of the incident.
Gregg, this is for all purposes, the analysis of the accident. A formal report will be issued by folks that will write a dry, "what went down" set of observations. The real deal is going on here in TAY where people are saying what they think, admitting to their own near misses, and describing their logic in their choices for dealing with deep p...
Bottom line is we all make decisions on what's possible. Backcountry touring is in many ways an exercise in probability. Given the higher than normal possibility of a deep slab some will choose to ride low angle or clean their gutters. Others will feel comfortable that possible, but not likely probable makes it "good to go." I am in the first camp, but I understand those in the second camp.
CookieMonster's analysis seems spot on to me. It probably reflects well what several of us have been trying to convey, but he communicates it much better.
His same analysis seems applicable to what I remember from the incident and analysis of the near-fatal event on Kendall from April, 2010.
The analysis, to my eyes, read largely as "we are guides, we are educated, this is what we did and why it was logical." It then ended with the smug conclusion that "...
His same analysis seems applicable to what I remember from the incident and analysis of the near-fatal event on Kendall from April, 2010.
The analysis, to my eyes, read largely as "we are guides, we are educated, this is what we did and why it was logical." It then ended with the smug conclusion that "...
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=30926.msg129649#msg129649 date=1393518800]I have to say ALL OF US have been very lucky have this hazard demonstrated so vividly without anybody getting hurt. shawnskis should be thanked for bringing this discussion into the open by reporting his party's experience.
Indeed. I hope we can still say this a week or three from now!
author=Susan Ashlock link=topic=30926.msg129629#msg129629 date=1393485745]
FYI for those reading this thread:
Last Saturday's forecast for Snoqualmie Pass actually didn't call out a persistent weak layer as a concern (wind slabs and storm slabs were). Persistent weak layer was called out as a concern east of the crest.
http://www.nwac.us/avalanche-forecast/2014-02-22/cascade-west-snoqualmie-pass/
C...
author=Susan Ashlock link=topic=30926.msg129629#msg129629 date=1393485745]Last Saturday's forecast for Snoqualmie Pass actually didn't call out a persistent weak layer as a concern (wind slabs and storm slabs were). Persistent weak layer was called out as a concern east of the crest.
http://www.nwac.us/avalanche-forecast/2014-02-22/cascade-west-snoqualmie-pass/
Thanks for pointing that out, Susan.
The NWAC bu...
author=T. Eastman link=topic=30926.msg129576#msg129576 date=1393461960]
It hurts every time I read of severe injury or death where accustomed behavior directed the risk assessment and route choice. Call it quarterbacking or "WTF" but I always appreciated being told bluntly by my peers or mentors that I had screwed up.
You just have thicker skin Todd:) My belief is that a large majority of the people invo...
author=Brandonee link=topic=30908.msg129636#msg129636 date=1393514103]
Hmmm...just because you wore a baggy jacket doesn't cancel out the fact you were wearing tights for pants....sorry Josh to disappoint you, but your hero was wearing some Dynafit tights ;D
Damnit, my world is shattered. This is why my momma told me to never glorify heroes, they will always disappoint you in the end. :(
You lucky buggers! I'm so jealous.
author=aaron_wright link=topic=30926.msg129639#msg129639 date=1393515579]
^^^This is what I've been trying to convey but I lack Cookie's smarts.
I'd also like to chime in and say that Cookie's last post seems very constructive and also seems to lack malice. I hope we all can read this type of post and take in the wisdom without being defensive. All of us make mistakes.
Thanks to all for many wise w...
^^^This is what I've been trying to convey but I lack Cookie's smarts.
author=bfree32 link=topic=30937.msg129627#msg129627 date=1393482291]
4 feet wide, 6 inches deep, running 2 feet downhill. That might be the smallest avalanche I've ever heard of! ;)
You crack me up. I almost just spit out my coffee while reading your reply. ;D
I changed the title of this thread. I've been using "avy" as a shorthand for unstable snow, avalanches, etc. but that is confusing to rea...
author=bc_skier link=topic=30926.msg129635#msg129635 date=1393513561]Assessing stability is complicated, but in this storm cycle it was text book if you choose to read the signs.
author=trees4me link=topic=30926.msg129614#msg129614 date=1393472444]
Cookie, I'm sure you only intended the best by your post, but it really strikes me as more of a indictment of the state of avy education then this particul...
Hmmm...just because you wore a baggy jacket doesn't cancel out the fact you were wearing tights for pants....sorry Josh to disappoint you, but your hero was wearing some Dynafit tights ;D
Great trip report.
From what I see most of the comments are not negative but honest comments on how others assessed the avalanche hazard for that day/storm cycle. Everyone is trying to learn and apply what they learn in future ski trips. One thing is for sure, we had a huge storm cycle over that period of time. Huge storm cycles catch people off guard until they see enough of them.
Assessing stability is complicated, but in this storm cycle it was text book if you choose t...
From what I see most of the comments are not negative but honest comments on how others assessed the avalanche hazard for that day/storm cycle. Everyone is trying to learn and apply what they learn in future ski trips. One thing is for sure, we had a huge storm cycle over that period of time. Huge storm cycles catch people off guard until they see enough of them.
Assessing stability is complicated, but in this storm cycle it was text book if you choose t...