TR Replies
author=ND link=topic=31089.msg130909#msg130909 date=1395419115]
I think you should re-read your own post and re-evaluate how your group responded to this situation. Let's make this scenario play out on a road instead of a mountain, so that you can't prejudge the other party. Replace skis with road bikes and sleds with trucks.
You and your friends on road bikes decide to take a break, leaving your bikes by the side of the road. A group...
Were the snowmachiners playing "Highmark"??
Good to meet you Dave. Thanks for posting your vid so I can relive the day over my morning coffee. Too bad about all the tracks you had to cross ;)
author=plugNchug link=topic=31089.msg130337#msg130337 date=1394516707]
the machines did circles around our bivvy trenches, asking if we were alright...thinking that the skis stuck vertical in the snow was some sign of distress. One guy in our party got out of his bivvy sack and relieved himself in front of the riders and said we were "OK" , that we did not need rescue. They took off in a huff with 2 cycle noise, blue smoke and and wavin...
Ron, I learned about avi stuff while spending many years living in the Colorado mountains. It has an entirely different snowpack, but the small terrain traps at treeline and just below were often sketchy. We also spent lots of days in that zone as the bigger above treeline slopes were either bare or scary. These smaller areas there and here demand respect,and as you have written, you have developed a better sense of potential trouble where you had not expected it.
Thanks for init...
Thanks for init...
Yes.... bs. It was great weather for the two days. We had just arriived at camp. At first I was overwhelmed by everyones Stoke level.... Which left me short on words.... It did not take long to figure out why you guys were so happy!
Take care.
Take care.
that is a nice road trip, everyone should do it once!
Thanks Robie!
Definitely a good day up there!
Definitely a good day up there!
Fun video, the snow looks awesome! I thought about joining you up there, but figured it would be kinda heavy...kicking myself for not going :(
Thanks all for the support. Immediately after the incident I felt OK, and Matt and I decided to continue our tour and ski. All was good, but later things got tougher for me as the drama continued to play out in my mind, and honestly sleep came with difficulty. The support of family, friends and this forum community has helped immensely.
The comments, and suggestions are also helpful as reinforcement for me as I continue to put together what caused our error in judgement, because we...
The comments, and suggestions are also helpful as reinforcement for me as I continue to put together what caused our error in judgement, because we...
Glad you made it out Ron, and thanks for the well written report. Having skied that area with you a few times, my takeaway is the same as stoudema's. I'll be giving relatively small slopes a bit more respect from now on.
author=Radar link=topic=31164.msg130821#msg130821 date=1395263425]
I wonder what putyourhandupifyourepooping1.jpg contains.
Blue bags make poor flotation devices.........
Thank you both for posting this. Rebecca and I are glad you guys are ok. Matt, that was a nice write up. First hand accounts of slides and the decision making process leading up to them are very helpful to me. I use them to try to give clarity to possible mistakes that could easily be made in the field.
I think one issue with these reports is that they are often (not always) the result of hours of introspection into the signs and the mistakes that were m...
I think one issue with these reports is that they are often (not always) the result of hours of introspection into the signs and the mistakes that were m...
it was cool to run into you guys up there. seemed like everyone on the mountain was having a good day. we sure did!
Helpful info, thanks for the share.
No criticism here, you went out in the mountains...own it.
No criticism here, you went out in the mountains...own it.
I missed the part about shooting cracks when I read the report at 6am this morning so that changes things a bit for me. I am still not sure I would have turned around given I have crossed that gap so many times in similar conditions. I constantly struggle to remind my self the objective is to always watch for signs of instability; not for signs of stability. And that one sign of instability always trumps all other signs of stability. This changes things a lot for me since it is a slope I kno...
Stoudema
Thanks for your perspective as well. It even clarifies the situation a whole lot more. If I ever ski down at Hood I have flagged this area and its risks. It is these types of reports that help in making safer skiing choices.
From the pictures you did find some nice turns.
Thanks for your perspective as well. It even clarifies the situation a whole lot more. If I ever ski down at Hood I have flagged this area and its risks. It is these types of reports that help in making safer skiing choices.
From the pictures you did find some nice turns.
I generally prefer not to weigh in on these threads since many times they become reduced to back and forth arguments about whose dick is bigger, and because if things aren't worded just right (from someone else's perspective), people feel the need to blast off. But, as some have indicated, there is valuable information to be gained that others can use to not repeat the same mistakes we made on our trip, so here's my two cents....
As has been stated several times, there...
As has been stated several times, there...
rong - thanks for the writeup, and for reflecting on what you'd do differently in the future on this terrain (and for your constructive tone in responding to all the comments).
I have some mental image of this from hiking through there this past September (and I have a fairly vivid image of crossing the V of Little Zigzag on the trail with fairly hot sun beating down), which makes this at least slightly less that fully-abstract for me.
I have some mental image of this from hiking through there this past September (and I have a fairly vivid image of crossing the V of Little Zigzag on the trail with fairly hot sun beating down), which makes this at least slightly less that fully-abstract for me.
Thanks for the write up. I am out of towner that was recently poking around the same real estate after the big snow a few weeks ago and had a lot of my questions about terrain choices answered in this thread. Glad all are safe.
Yes, there are lessons to be learned from this. This is why I read the report and all that follows. Ron G could have not gone out, he could have turned around and not crossed that slope or chose somewhere else to ski. Maybe made a slight adjustment in where they chose to cross to avoid a potential weak point or a hump indicating a possible stress point. He possibly could have gone a bit higher or lower to avoid the slope. There are so many coulda, shoulda woul...
I wonder what putyourhandupifyourepooping1.jpg contains.
Rong-
Sorry...No, I wasn't referring to you romanticizing....it was the other guy with the "roll the dice" BS, and the "don't know what you could've done differently".
You just gave info; it was a good write-up. My armchair QB'ing was just that, armchair. The shooting cracks and new snow you mentioned caught my eye immediately. I've got kids, dead friends from avy's, so my risk tolerance is much less...
Sorry...No, I wasn't referring to you romanticizing....it was the other guy with the "roll the dice" BS, and the "don't know what you could've done differently".
You just gave info; it was a good write-up. My armchair QB'ing was just that, armchair. The shooting cracks and new snow you mentioned caught my eye immediately. I've got kids, dead friends from avy's, so my risk tolerance is much less...
author=BillK link=topic=31167.msg130798#msg130798 date=1395248691]
Good for you, Micah! And maybe you would've ended up dead, like this guy almost did.
You guys romanticize this sport to the point of ridicule...."a roll of the dice"...give me a break! It doesn't have to be a gamble or a guessing game. Significant snowfall, windloading, shooting cracks all tell me that you should stay off terrain (even micro-terrain) that may s...
author=cascadekid link=topic=31167.msg130804#msg130804 date=1395249928]
The location is the one that I had in mind, but I have been incorrectly referring to the smaller canyon between little and big zigzag at little zigzag for some time. Do you think the high crossing is a "no go" during a storm because of visibility issues? When we were out yesterday we came to what must have been very near to your accident site and were sketched by the looks...
author=rong link=topic=31167.msg130788#msg130788 date=1395236439]
GPS location for the incident 45.3378 - 121.7272. Elevation 5836. Descripion: Intersection of the Pacific Crest Trail and the Little Zig Zag Canyon.
I have crossed above the little zig zag at ~7000' due west of the top terminal for the magic mile lift on several occasions, but consider it a no go during the storm cycle, which we were in the day of the accident.
Below t...
E-sport and Billk you are both right in my opinion. In hindsight going home would have been the ABSOLUTE safe decision and choice. Frankly at this point it is one I wish we had made. A slide involvement has never been on my to do list, but it is always a possibility. I feel we did enough to mitigate a serious incident, but not enough to avoid it. After the fact, we discussed an upper crossing as Cascade Kid suggested, or a lower crossing where less slabby conditions would have prevailed. W...
author=Floater link=topic=31167.msg130797#msg130797 date=1395248315]
If you want to really ski powder out of bounds you have to assume some level of risk. All you can do is improve your odds. At zero odds the powder skiing is often not as enjoyable. All you can do is balance risk to your level of enjoyment knowing the serious consequences.
While it's true that we always assume some risk while skiing in the backcountry, or in th...
Thanks for the write up and glad you are ok!
author=Micah link=topic=31167.msg130796#msg130796 date=1395247897]
BillK: I would certainly have been out on 3/17 if I had the chance!
Good for you, Micah! And maybe you would've ended up dead, like this guy almost did.
You guys romanticize this sport to the point of ridicule...."a roll of the dice"...give me a break! It doesn't have to be a gamble or a guessing game. Significant snowfall, windloading,...
I hope you are not dissed for writing this. There may be folks that critique your decision making process, but hopefully they will not do it in arrogant manner. This could have been any backcountry skier who loves to ski powder. It is a roll of the dice. If you want to really ski powder out of bounds you have to assume some level of risk. All you can do is improve your odds. At zero odds the powder skiing is often not as enjoyable. All you can do is balance risk to your level of enjoyment...
Rong: glad you are OK, man! Thanks for distributing this info in such a detailed and forthright manner. This case is tough b/c the slope that slid is such a small barrier on a route I would otherwise say is safe. And the slope is so small that it is hard to take is seriously -- this is good reminder that even small slopes can result in a burial if the stars align. One thing I have noticed this season is multiple folks in the same party are getting caught, sometimes in 'safe' area...
author=Radar link=topic=31164.msg130789#msg130789 date=1395240938]
PS: The file names on N's photos; awesome
For the record, I was not, actually, pooping :)
author=Edgesport link=topic=31167.msg130790#msg130790 date=1395241086]
I don't know what else you could have done. Again, so glad you two are okay.
"but in reality there had been 16-18 in 10 hours, with continuing accumulation. On the tour we noticed frequent compression cracks and the occasional shooting crack on low angle slopes"
Stayed home?
Wow, so glad your okay. Scary stuff. That crossing is a necessary evil much of the time for all the reasons pointed out and all the elements are there; trap, angle, loading. I can't think of anywhere to dig prior to that crossing that would be representative of that slope and there is no where to do hasties, stomps, or cuts that mimic that slope either. I wish the hood community contributed more on this site because one really has to have traveled that crossing to have a discussion...
Way to rip it up on the shine pow! At least the weather looked nice out (minus the wind of course)!
PS: The file names on N's photos; awesome
PS: The file names on N's photos; awesome
author=cascadekid link=topic=31167.msg130783#msg130783 date=1395206064]
We saw your tracks while out today. With scoured lee slopes and intimidatingly widespread wind-loading we saw no reason to travel into little zigzag canyon.
I think the location that you're referring to is actually en-route to little zig zag. In the future, you might consider traveling up about 750' vertical where that moraine can be end-run at the top. That's a g...
Right on fellas. I'm so grateful for my winter Baker summit skis, but they are full on gnar missions.
We saw your tracks while out today. With scoured lee slopes and intimidatingly widespread wind-loading we saw no reason to travel into little zigzag canyon.
I think the location that you're referring to is actually en-route to little zig zag. In the future, you might consider traveling up about 750' vertical where that moraine can be end-run at the top. That's a good way to get pas tthat terrain trap and access the terrain beyond.
Found your tracks in the tre...
I think the location that you're referring to is actually en-route to little zig zag. In the future, you might consider traveling up about 750' vertical where that moraine can be end-run at the top. That's a good way to get pas tthat terrain trap and access the terrain beyond.
Found your tracks in the tre...
Here are some photos from the day.
https://plus.google.com/photos/103077181882908407248/albums/5992335518035603937?authkey=CP_c4ujU3vbqGA
Photo #3 Me traversing up the slope that failed seconds before.
Photo #4 Some of the debris pile, bed surface, and crown above.
Photo #5 Me looking for 2nd pole in the hole where i was buried.
Photo #10 Map of the location (red dot in center) of the incident.
https://plus.google.com/photos/103077181882908407248/albums/5992335518035603937?authkey=CP_c4ujU3vbqGA
Photo #3 Me traversing up the slope that failed seconds before.
Photo #4 Some of the debris pile, bed surface, and crown above.
Photo #5 Me looking for 2nd pole in the hole where i was buried.
Photo #10 Map of the location (red dot in center) of the incident.
Speaks volumes to the use of hasties, cutting , and stomping when slope cracking has been noted...
As always a great looking trip. Thanks for the great stoke!
I don't always travel out of state to go somewhere with awesome scenery, but when I do my stupid iphone locks up. My only two photos to contribute are below.
It should get an honorary mention that I was still sick during all of this, blowing my nose and coughing up phlegm. Needless to say I slept in a bivy. Since the ladies had both also been sick in the last two weeks our germs combined to form gonaherphasyphilaids. There is only one know cure for gonahep...
It should get an honorary mention that I was still sick during all of this, blowing my nose and coughing up phlegm. Needless to say I slept in a bivy. Since the ladies had both also been sick in the last two weeks our germs combined to form gonaherphasyphilaids. There is only one know cure for gonahep...
author=silaswild link=topic=31157.msg130690#msg130690 date=1395095112]
Ski penetration 0-16".
impressive range.
Well we did the phantom from the tippy top's and it was all good, even the waterfall trees were acceptable although the skin track through the trees was a PITA.
2 other parties of 2 hit the slot as they got up there quicker but we didn't want that many tracks and who can resist 3000ft of untouched cascade powder.
Thanks Silas!
2 other parties of 2 hit the slot as they got up there quicker but we didn't want that many tracks and who can resist 3000ft of untouched cascade powder.
Thanks Silas!
Is the Enter/Return key broken on your keyboard? Glad you're safe.
Thanks for posting and I'm very happy you're ok (we shared some trail time on a sunny corny day at MSH a few years back). I agree that it's a constant battle to overcome normalization to risk ("Over the years of no incidents we get sloppy") but accounts like this one can serve as a reminder to stay alert. Mainly for that reason, I am always very appreciative of reports like this.
Wow! Glad you guys made it out safely.
Since it was St. Patrick's Day, you must have been wearing some green to be so lucky?
Since it was St. Patrick's Day, you must have been wearing some green to be so lucky?