WMC Update 2012

I and others have given this acknowledgement, even if WMC has not. Yet I repeatedly see you and ruffy ignore key aspects of the skier POV regarding wilderness and regarding the practical fact that sledders win in "shared" areas. Emulating WMC does not strengthen your arguments.

Some skiers and snowshoers enjoy traveling wooded valleys, it is part of the whole Forest experience. Users of non-motorized winter recreation areas vary in uses. Some are looking for open slopes and summits, some are traveling in Forest, some travel a mile, some travel 8 miles to and from a climb of a peak, some go overnight, on and on. Whenever possible consideration of various uses is important.

As far as high alpine areas, Mt Baker and Mt St Helens appear to be heavily used by snowmobiles in winter. According to reports WMC has received, the heavy snowmobile use degrades skiing and non-motorized use in those areas.

On Page 15 WMC discussed some estimates of size and use. Again, simply put out the Wenatchee NF map and observe all of the area to the south of the Wenatchee mountains crest open to snowmobiling (from the Cascade Crest nearly to the Columbia River), that could not covered on that map by outstretched hands, compared to the primo-skiing Wenatchee Mountains crest area at the current Tronsen Non-Motorized area at Blewett Pass- which on the map would be covered by a Quarter coin.

Thanks for all the discussion!

I'm not sure he knew thats where the data came from, I had to do a fair bit of searching to get it. That's where I got the original 150,000 to 98,000 numbers. I'm still having a hard time with that being 50/50 as ruffy posted.

Didn't we say snowshoers aren't really in this argument from a terrain perspective? I mean, I don't see snowshoers running up and down the open glades very much.

So that drops the number down to 115,000 of skiers. Also, I stated CLOSER to 50/50 then previously assumed. Correct, it is not 50/50. Skiers do take the advantage, but not by the 3 or 4 times that it seemed was originally though.

I and others have given this acknowledgement, even if WMC has not. Yet I repeatedly see you and ruffy ignore key aspects of the skier POV regarding practicality of day access to wilderness and regarding the practical fact that sledders win in "shared" areas. Emulating WMC does not strengthen your arguments.

Jim, i've repeatedly stated and think a real solution IS to make those areas accessible day trips. thus my reason for asking the questions of how long a day trip would be and how much effective territory could be "tracked" out. I also think that realigning and educating sledders to create non-motorized cooridors to these areas need to be looked at also. And I've also stated that I can understand the desire to not get caught up a sled trench.

Getting caught up in useless unmoving debate with WMC is over for me. He/they won't answer my questions, continues to bring up how it "used" to be and I'd rather speak to someone like yourself to get a better give and take, so I can understand more of your concern. I haven't had the conflicts in my experience so the only way I can get the information is to ask you guys. I've been trying to understand the mindset of the exclusion position vs a compromise position.

I say, let's have a pow wow, pull out a map and figure it out....not to simply exclude any groups...and the wilderness has to be part of that equation.

Didn't we say snowshoers aren't really in this argument from a terrain perspective? I mean, I don't see snowshoers running up and down the open glades very much.

So that drops the number down to 115,000 of skiers.  Also, I stated CLOSER to 50/50 then previously assumed.  Correct, it is not 50/50.  Skiers do take the advantage, but not by the 3 or 4 times that it seemed was originally though.

It would interesting to be able to pull data that shows the back country useage, since that is what this debate is about. How many people actually use the area in question.

I and others have given this acknowledgement, even if WMC has not. Yet I repeatedly see you and ruffy ignore key aspects of the skier POV regarding practicality of day access to wilderness and regarding the practical fact that sledders win in "shared" areas. Emulating WMC does not strengthen your arguments.

It is correct that it can be difficult to share a slope that is easily utilized for snowmobile use, especially Alpine areas where snowmobiles have very little to limit their abilities.  I do not disagree with this point.  As stated by skiers on here before, many of the lines they like and ski, a snowmobiler would be unable to use.   Does snowmobilers tracking up 1/2 of a mountain face make the whole mountain not feasible for skiers?  Would there not be lines still available to skiers?  It has been stated before (by skiers) that their would and are still available lines.

I am sorry if I have come across as otherwise.  It is a correct statement that a skier going down a slope that is tracked up by snowmobilers is no fun.  I snowboard a lot, and I can completely understand what you are talking about.  

As to practicality of day access, do you mean that it is too far to get to? Or that it is impossible to increase the access to make it easier to get to?  I do agree that for many, it is too far to get to.  You know, I wonder if a shuttle system would be something to consider.  Probably not likely, but a snowcat and a yearly operator would be much cheaper then plowing a road.. yah, I can dream, can't I? ha ha.

It would interesting to be able to pull data that shows the back country useage, since that is what this debate is about. How many people actually use the area in question.

Agreed, but I think to find out the numbers in an accurate manor could / would be quite expensive.