WMC Update 2012

Is the 151,000 number limited to backcountry skiers plus snowshoers?  Counting resort skiers when discussing the expected use of backcountry terrain would be like counting mall walkers when estimating the need for hiking trails.

Right you are. Very good point.

As for the 2:1 ratio you see and sno-parks, I know multiple skiers who just plain avoid going to almost all tours that start at sno-parks where you'd see sledders (I'm not one of them - some of my usual crew says "I love the smell of two-stroke in the morning - it smells like victory!"). I don't think I've seen any credible stats/percentages in this thread yet, from either side, whether on users or on practically accessible acreage...

The sno parks that I am talking about have specific locations for non-motorized users that do not share any areas with motorized. Also, the amount of non-motorized users that are using the motorized locations a very very small as well. As for stats, it is only what I have seen and perceived.

You are right though, this thread is very lacking in any states.

This seems go be going around (and around, and around). I see that you continue to state that skiers have 100% access, even though there are many places where it's just not worth skiing due to sled traffic and tracks (as discussed ad nauseum above). You keep focusing on the wilderness in your take on how much space skiers have despite clear discussion of why it's not practicall accessible for most of us

Agreed, but as long as WMC and others keep using the term parity / fair share, without specifying that they are talking ONLY about day access, I will keep making the argument. Parity in comparable riding areas is already achieved, it just takes too much human powered effort for most of you to get to it.

(and I very much agree with recent comments on the unlikeliness of getting roads plowed or the Wilderness Act changed in a way that would alter the story).

Good things aren't always easy, but if your 151k skiers and snowshoers all put in 50 bucks, that might be a start, don't you think?

So is the above quote justification?

It is further demonstration of the concept of buffers to Wilderness that are used for several reasons by USFS.

The WMC justification for new and significant winter non-motorized areas for a significant user group arises from the need for parity and equity for incompatible uses in the available resource. The discussion points out that the WMC proposal coincides with benefits other than recreation management.

Ruffy how many skiers and snowshoers use the Forest compared to the 35000 registered snowmobiles, can you please tell us that? Do you think that there are more snowmobilers? Do you think that skiers should not interfere with snowmobile riding? Outside of Wilderness what portion of Forest should skiers have for their use unimpeded by snowmobiles?

Thanks.

Here are statistics copied from Winter Wildlands Alliance website -

www.winterwildlands.org/resources/reports/WWA_WA.pdf

The Washington national forests contain:
- 2,575 miles of groomed winter trails
- 2,309 miles of groomed trails open to snowmobiles
- 266 miles of groomed trails closed to snowmobiles
See Table A.
The Washington national forests contain:
- 7,812,000 acres of land
- 4,507,658 acres of land open to snowmobiles
- 1,103,818 acres of non-wilderness land closed to snowmobiles
- 2,261,444 acres of designated wilderness land, also closed to
snowmobiles
See Table C.
The NVUM surveys for the Washington forests show there are
an estimated:
- 520,550 cross-country ski and snowshoe visits annually
- 362,900 snowmobile visits annually
See Table B.
These numbers show that on national forest land in Washington,
there are 10 times more miles of groomed motorized trails than
non-motorized even though NVUM participation figures show
that statewide the number of skier and snowshoer visits exceed
snowmobile visits by 50 percent. This disparity results in a density
of 1,957 skier and snowshoer visits per non-motorized mile
compared to 157 snowmobile visits per motorized mile.
Neither the Gifford Pinchot National Forest nor the Mt. Baker-
Snoqualmie National Forest offer any groomed non-motorized
trails, despite the fact that there are more skiers than snowmo-
Washington National Forests
bilers in both forests. In the Gifford Pinchot National Forest, skiers
and snowshoers outnumber snowmobilers two to one, yet
all of the 195 miles of groomed trails are motorized. In the Mt.
Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest, use is estimated to be equal,
yet not one of the 134 miles of groomed trails is designated
non-motorized. Given the fact that the NVUM numbers do not
account for displaced visitors, the numbers of cross-country skiers
and snowshoers in these forests may be even higher.
Even in Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest, where 227 miles
of trail are designated non-motorized, density is 1,095 skier and
snowshoer visits per non-motorized mile versus 77 snowmobile
visits per motorized mile. There are twice as many non-motorized
users visiting this forest, yet there are six times more
motorized miles than non-motorized miles of groomed trails.
Washington has 1.1 million acres of non-wilderness non-motorized
lands compared to 4.5 million acres that are open to
snowmobiles. This results in a ratio of six non-motorized users
to one motorized user per acre despite 50 percent more skier
and snowshoer visits than snowmobile visits.
The Washington SCORP estimates, which are consistent with
the NVUM survey participation numbers, estimate there are
112,942 cross-country skiers, 38,000 snowshoers, and 98,072
snowmobilers participating in the state.96 Given the disparity
between user numbers and the small percentage of trails
closed to motorized use, it is not surprising that the state plan
concludes that “growing demand is resulting in more reported
crowding, increased specialization, increased user conflicts, and
increased management actions to limit adverse impacts of access
and activities.”

Right you are.  Very good point.

From Winter Wildlands Alliance -

www.winterwildlands.org/resources/reports/WWA_WA.pdf

"Even in Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest, where 227 miles
of trail are designated non-motorized, density is 1,095 skier and
snowshoer visits per non-motorized mile versus 77 snowmobile
visits per motorized mile. There are twice as many non-motorized
users visiting this forest, yet there are six times more
motorized miles than non-motorized miles of groomed trails.
Washington has 1.1 million acres of non-wilderness non-motorized
lands compared to 4.5 million acres that are open to
snowmobiles. This results in a ratio of six non-motorized users
to one motorized user per acre despite 50 percent more skier
and snowshoer visits than snowmobile visits."