WMC Update 2012

have a good weekend everyone..thank a vet for our ability to have this discussion!!

...I don't want to see snowmo's excluded from alpine terrain. I agree that designated wilderness can be counted in the skiers' column.

...I am very skeptical that moto and non-moto user groups would ever agree on the fairness of a given management scheme. (In fact I know of motorized users who believe that wilderness designation is in principle unfair .... and no-moto folks who think snowmobiling should not be allowed off road.) I do think we can find better management schemes through dialog such as what is occurring here.  

... Everybody can't have everything they want, but everybody should get something reasonable...Advances in equipment on both sides have resulted in greater competition for the 'prime' slopes. Some predict the conflict will escalate. I'm not sure, but I think it could. I urge the user groups to work for compromise. In contrast to some here, I think skiers do have more good alpine areas available to them in principle than snowmobiles. For many reasons I will protest any plan that allows snowmobiling on 1/2 of the alpine terrain in the state. Most should be wilderness, as they are.

Your admissions here that wilderness poaching by snomos is a problem has gone a long way with me, personally. I am also pleased by your suggestion that conflict could be mitigated by improving access to areas that are already managed as non-motorized. I don't think this is the answer, but it is a useful suggestion that  indicates you are taking the "other side's" viewpoint into account.

What I would like to introduce to this discussion is the notion that recreation by snowmobile has more impact than non-motorized use and that serious, aggressive riding on open alpine slopes is a newcomer to the outdoor rec scene...

Instead, I think we (all interested parties) should identify the areas in which off-road snowmobiling works 'best' (i.e. is not contested or provides good, high quality riding with good access, with as little displacement of other uses as practical).

These should be designated for off-road use and have obvious boundaries. Other areas should be designated for on-trail riding only. Of course the workability of this scheme depends on which areas, how much, etc. I understand that, form the snowmobile POV, this may seem like you are losing since there currently, outside the wilderness, are basically no restrictions on snowmobile travel.

Love to hear what you guys (snowmobilers) think and how you view alpine snowmobiling in the larger land-management context. I feel that conflict with skiers is only one of issues raised by this use. I'm sure we have room for you; just need to share...

Excellent prose, great ideas Micah! Thank you! Keep it up and WMC can just take a break, I am sure to everyone's relief! 

A suggested addition to this discussion is that snowmobiles are allowed on significant alpine terrain on Mt. Baker and on Mt. St Helens. Near the entire WMC proposal area are significant open slopes remaining for the snowmobiles. On the east section clearly many miles- more than in the proposal- of open slopes are left for snowmobiles. On the Teanaway crest, WMC feels that the area should be contiguous against the Wilderness Boundary, for the many reasons previously discussed.

As far as the WMC proposal, we are in the phase of discussion and coalition-building. We are attempting to demonstrate with the "Thousand Skiers Project" that a significant user group- skiers and snowshoers-  is affected by the issues that are raised and by the WMC proposal. When the time is right, we will have a more formalized proposal and yes, a WMC map to present to USFS. So the folks making comments here are helping to influence or forge the idea. If USFS decides that this is an issue for action, perhaps then there will be official processes with comments and meetings of various user groups.

Again, thanks for all of the great discussion. WMC would like to see a variety of various folks comment here, and of course WMC is asking for support and individual advocacy through the Thousand Skier Project. Thanks!

Ruffryder and Yammadog

I am a snowshoer and a bc skier, I don't own a snowmobile but I used to ride almost daily about 15 years ago for a period of about two years straight.

What you need to understand is that I desire the same access you have to the winter playground. As a snowshoer, and going out to snowshoe with my family (dog, 12 year old daughter, wife) I can't get to the wilderness boundary that you keep saying is so available to us non-motorized users. There is no where I can park my car and step out to a wilderness boundary. On the other hand, every snowmobiler in the state can simply drive to the nearest sno-park or Forest Service road and have immediate access to the snow country. Since I can't access the wilderness I try to find perhaps a quite FS road near my home - guess what? These FS roads all allow snowmobiling and so where do you propose I go to experience the winter forest like you do? There are only one or two non-motorized areas on the entire Oknanogan-Wenatchee NF that exclude snowmobiles and they can be snowshoed in about 2-3 hours! You can bet that I will not go to the so called "multiple use" areas because that would be like going for a walk on the highway. We have summer parks where you can't ride or drive a motor vehicle so why can't we have non-motorized areas for the pedestrians that use the forest in the winter?


Regarding the constant reference to educating the snowmobilers to respect the skiers and the snowshoers, well that has been the method used by the FS for the last 25 years and a lot of money has been spent educating. How hard is it to learn that you can't use snowmobiles in the wilderness? This has been proven to not work because they still trespass. So lets not talk about spending more money on education please.


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The sno parks that I am talking about have specific locations for non-motorized users that do not share any areas with motorized. Also, the amount of non-motorized users that are using the motorized locations a very very small as well.  As for stats, it is only what I have seen and perceived.

snowparks near easily accessed quality non-motorized terrain get plenty of non-motorized users. Check out the Salt Crk snowpark near Wing Ridge outside of Joseph Oregon. There are always more vehicles on the non-motorized side, it just looks like there are fewer because the freakin trailers take up so much space.

have a good weekend everyone..thank a vet for our ability to have this discussion!!

I'm a veteran and that's what Veteran's Day is for, Memorial day is to honor those killed in battle. These thing bother me more than a little at times. Of course thanking a vet for his service any day is welcome.

Ruffy....I"ve decided you can't have a give and take conversation with a zealot. Parity in his mind is just that....only in his mind...

pulling "facts" from a known hard line environmental group is like asking a child rapist if he can babysit your kids....

,,,

Since such despicable language as above is allowed here, WMC will ask please for decent and civil discussion here. WMC recognizes that others have opposition to some concepts, that is their right. In response to those in opposition, WMC will strongly state its case and disagree, argue, but will endeavor to not characterize or name-call any individual taking a different or opposition viewpoint. We ask for proper language, civil behavior, and good faith discussion and debate. Thank you.