TR Replies
Thanks Kneel Turner... that is fantastic advice! Much more helpful than PNWBrit's advice about not going into the mountains.
Thanks for sharing your story. Being in unfamiliar terrain in the first place was probably a bad idea on Sunday given the conditions and potential implications of being even slightly "off-route". Good job getting down together and in one piece.
The thing I take home from this is your comment about sapping your energy early and fatigue's contribution to making poor choices.
I think you're being receptive to the helpful comments being posted, and am impressed at you...
The thing I take home from this is your comment about sapping your energy early and fatigue's contribution to making poor choices.
I think you're being receptive to the helpful comments being posted, and am impressed at you...
My observations and questions were not intended to be flipant. I really wanted to know what went into (or was left out of) the decision making process.
That's a great quote, Keith.
One thing that I hope will stick w/me as long as I'm able to "get out there" is a Gary Brill presentation that pointed out the revolving cycle of avy education, confidence, accident, and back to education, so on, and so on...
Where this cycle starts depends on the indivi...
That's a great quote, Keith.
One thing that I hope will stick w/me as long as I'm able to "get out there" is a Gary Brill presentation that pointed out the revolving cycle of avy education, confidence, accident, and back to education, so on, and so on...
Where this cycle starts depends on the indivi...
author=tim_place link=topic=14479.msg60871#msg60871 date=1258768089]
Jeez, that must be one of the "Death Chutes"!!
Well it was a nice straightforward run. And easy to find our way through having never gone into the Baker BC... But then again I'm just another unimaginative seattlite...
author=silaswild link=topic=14479.msg60528#msg60528 date=1258259279]
We...
author=hypermartyr link=topic=14595.msg61143#msg61143 date=1259134846]???
We are both old enough to recognize when things are getting hairy
Things were hairy BEFORE you left the house, any teenaged upstart avi student coulda told you that. People have died in those trees, they are not as safe as you think, recheck your maps, read the accident reports, go back to school...
For what it is worth, for me I consider this the most important quote in mountaineering, my prime heuristic, and a virtual mantra when I find myself in a sticky situation:
"There have been joys too great to be described in words, and there have been griefs upon which I have not dared to dwell, and with these in mind I say, climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifeti...
"There have been joys too great to be described in words, and there have been griefs upon which I have not dared to dwell, and with these in mind I say, climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifeti...
Having knowledge is pointless unless you use it.
Honestly your posts read like a lesson in how not to to go Into the mountains.
You have nothing to congratulate yourself about.
Honestly your posts read like a lesson in how not to to go Into the mountains.
You have nothing to congratulate yourself about.
Wow... thanks to everyone for all the great posts. Yes, it does sound like a bit of setup, but I had really only heard of Cement Basin days earlier... then was called away to business in Seattle (I am from Portland). Being out of my element perhaps gave me a bit more confidence than I needed that day. I was skiing with an old buddy who was also in Washington... and we were both happy to be skiing together again after a 2.5 year hiatus.
We are both well trained...
We are both well trained...
Not that I had to make the call as I went touring at the pass, but some others came along with me after initially planning on Crystal. Reasoning was 9 inches overnight at 7am with Southeast winds averaging 40-50mph gusting to max 95mph!! Sorry for formatting below, obviously available on the NWAC Crystal 10 day telemetry site. http://www.nwac.us/weatherdata/crystalskiarea/10day/
With 20/20 hindsight, they made an excellent call to have a safe enjoyable tour with me...
With 20/20 hindsight, they made an excellent call to have a safe enjoyable tour with me...
Thanks for the report, and pics. I was hoping to head up there soon, but sounds like I should wait for more snow. Should have made it up before the temps cranked up.
hypermartyr, et al: I've done similarly bone-headed things, and one stands out in particular. During a period of "Extreme" avalanche danger, I went with two others to the Snow Lake saddle and camped, while 3 feet of new turned into who-knows-how-many feet of new, including layers of graupple, buried layers of hoar frost if i remember correctly, and slightly warming temps (ie heavier snow piling on lighter snow, or "upside down"). We heard whoomphing that night, and I had...
HYpermartyr -
You are lucky, there are lots of good avi classes around this town. My favorites were with the Mountaineers. They are pretty cheep and accesible and the old salts that teach the class are pretty cool and nice. If they like you, they might even invite you to tour with them. Alot of them post here.
Check out this link:
http://www.nwac.us/accidents/
It is grim but very important and has tons of useful information. The people who compiled this da...
You are lucky, there are lots of good avi classes around this town. My favorites were with the Mountaineers. They are pretty cheep and accesible and the old salts that teach the class are pretty cool and nice. If they like you, they might even invite you to tour with them. Alot of them post here.
Check out this link:
http://www.nwac.us/accidents/
It is grim but very important and has tons of useful information. The people who compiled this da...
LeeL:
Did the calcs - 18 vehicles ave 3 people per = 54 potential skiers
fresh snow at time of visit at location of profile = 60cm
You are correct.
Cannot include at least 40cms since time of visit however - it's puking up there!
Feck:
It's not that far if you fly ;)
Correction - I said a couple of weeks until opening, wrong. More like 3, opening day is Dec 11 :'(
Did the calcs - 18 vehicles ave 3 people per = 54 potential skiers
fresh snow at time of visit at location of profile = 60cm
You are correct.
Cannot include at least 40cms since time of visit however - it's puking up there!
Feck:
It's not that far if you fly ;)
Correction - I said a couple of weeks until opening, wrong. More like 3, opening day is Dec 11 :'(
author=TobyT link=topic=14599.msg61110#msg61110 date=1259110257]
Yup. You need you own.
Thanks for the report. Been wondering how conditions were up there. I go snomo accessed touring in the Teanaway pretty frequently. PM me if you're looking for partners.
Good stuff as usual, Toby -- Teanaway's on the list this winter, hopefully I can make it happen.
author=PNWBrit link=topic=14595.msg61114#msg61114 date=1259112132]
Hey now!
No prompting from the peanut gallery!
Heh -- my thoughts exactly :)
Hey now!
No prompting from the peanut gallery!
No prompting from the peanut gallery!
Hyper,
I'll be honest, when I read the title to this report I thought "WTF?...Over". Then, when I read the report (taking into consideration the location, its history, and weather) I was wondering if it was a hoax. (eg. Flailing, knocked over by slides, falling in tree wells, skin troubles, lost, whiteout, frozen, exhausted... Seriously, its all there). Then I read a previous post where you inquired as to where C-Basin was. A brilliant set up? Who knows? I'll...
I'll be honest, when I read the title to this report I thought "WTF?...Over". Then, when I read the report (taking into consideration the location, its history, and weather) I was wondering if it was a hoax. (eg. Flailing, knocked over by slides, falling in tree wells, skin troubles, lost, whiteout, frozen, exhausted... Seriously, its all there). Then I read a previous post where you inquired as to where C-Basin was. A brilliant set up? Who knows? I'll...
The terrain in Cement Basin is deceptively simple.
Quantitatively speaking, the terrain in Cement Basin has a similar statistical signature to terrain that many people would look at and think "no way, not today". This includes slope angle measurements, cumulative slope angle measurements, fairly precise measurements of convex/concave areas, precise measurements of surface area, and highly analytical assessment of terrain traps.
In human terms, the terrain is steep...
Quantitatively speaking, the terrain in Cement Basin has a similar statistical signature to terrain that many people would look at and think "no way, not today". This includes slope angle measurements, cumulative slope angle measurements, fairly precise measurements of convex/concave areas, precise measurements of surface area, and highly analytical assessment of terrain traps.
In human terms, the terrain is steep...
author=TobyT link=topic=14599.msg61107#msg61107 date=1259109505]
I look forward to the approach and return on a sled, sometimes as much as the skiing itself!!?
ON a sled is the key, not on a rope being towed behind it! After 20+ miles of that, some people are frozen stiff, hardly able to ski then. :(
author=Jim Oker link=topic=14595.msg61102#msg61102 date=1259106759]
For my part, the upside-down snowpack, and all the new snow falling with plenty of wind were enough to push me toward riding the lifts before even seeing the hills up close.
Or checking the telemetry before leaving home, and deciding to go to Stevens/Yodelin instead, where the wind made no effect until late afternoon on Sunday! :)
Once again, b...
Thanks for the comments. And thanks to "gilbert" for correcting me on peak names. The peak is Argonaut, so dismiss the tag "sherpa" under the photo.
Jim, sledding is a sport all it's own! If you aren't ready to take the plunge and learn how to ride, then it would become a disaster every time. We broke "trail" in about 18" of fresh up the road, with not one other sledder (or anyone) around. Only got stuck once! Also, riding, on it's own, is...
Jim, sledding is a sport all it's own! If you aren't ready to take the plunge and learn how to ride, then it would become a disaster every time. We broke "trail" in about 18" of fresh up the road, with not one other sledder (or anyone) around. Only got stuck once! Also, riding, on it's own, is...
It is nice to see this discussion and this very non-defensive response from the original poster:
I'm glad this didn't immediately turn to a "hey, don't bum people out so they won't post TRs..." kind of thing.
author=hypermartyr link=topic=14595.msg61084#msg61084 date=1259098503]
No worries... judging is completely acceptable in this case.
I learned quite a few lessons that day.
I'm glad this didn't immediately turn to a "hey, don't bum people out so they won't post TRs..." kind of thing.
nts
Your right!!! Table for one Mister Bitterman, your beef is prepared. :D
Yesterday when I saw you, I meant to tell you about the time years ago, I did a afternoon jaunt solo in a small snow storm, enough...
author=Kyle Miller link=topic=14595.msg61095#msg61095 date=1259103464]
Your just bitter about me putting a skin track up the shoulder. ;)
We knew it was bad and quickly made the call to turn around early in the day.
Your right!!! Table for one Mister Bitterman, your beef is prepared. :D
Yesterday when I saw you, I meant to tell you about the time years ago, I did a afternoon jaunt solo in a small snow storm, enough...
Here is some video of Mosetick and Telemack skiing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7iFrozr9Pg
Enjoy.
Enjoy.
There was no way you could have payed me to head into cement basin that day. That area is infamous for wind loading and huge slides that have taken a few lifes within the recent past. Even the evacuation path through east peaks rollers would have scared the crap out of me.
Im really glad you made it out as the last thing the backcountry community needs is one of our own being another statistic. ( I would be lying to say I have never done anything like this in the past though)
Whi...
Im really glad you made it out as the last thing the backcountry community needs is one of our own being another statistic. ( I would be lying to say I have never done anything like this in the past though)
Whi...
author=Marcus link=topic=14595.msg61086#msg61086 date=1259099792]
Good deal -- what stands out? Lay it out here so others can learn too.
Oh, Oh, Oh pick me, pick me teacher, I know, I know, I know!!!!!
OK..... I won't spoil the answer and let them think it out.
Glad this is getting some conversation, I was all ready to post a thread that's titled, "What the hell are you thinking?" Not picking on anyo...
author=Marcus link=topic=14595.msg61086#msg61086 date=1259099792]
Good deal -- what stands out? Lay it out here so others can learn too.
For me that'd be a prerequisite before agreeing to have you...
author=hypermartyr link=topic=14595.msg61014#msg61014 date=1259019095]
Maybe next time we should head up with a local
Good deal -- what stands out? Lay it out here so others can learn too.
I was also in that area that day... sketch city:
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=14595
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=14595
No worries... judging is completely acceptable in this case.
I learned quite a few lessons that day.
I learned quite a few lessons that day.
Shames Rules! I only had one week long ski trip there a few years back. It was a good week of skiing!
Too bad it's so far from Seattle.
Too bad it's so far from Seattle.
Marcus- I can give you a great base grind with my belt-sander.
;-)
This is Brent, by the way. ...Of friends with B.J. fame. Let's go ski sometime after turkey day...
;-)
This is Brent, by the way. ...Of friends with B.J. fame. Let's go ski sometime after turkey day...
Ha! Hey Brent -- I can handle the belt-sander-level base grind myself, thanks ;)
Definitely on the skiing. My schedule's finally starting to open up just in time.
Definitely on the skiing. My schedule's finally starting to open up just in time.
Self-taught recreationist.
Software developer full-time, researcher part-time, some qualitative, some quantitative.
Mostly interested in:
Perception, techniques to aid perception for terrain, other stuff.
Approaches to backcountry avalanche forecasting that people can actually learn.
Systems-thinking approaches / information science methods for avalanche education.
Software developer full-time, researcher part-time, some qualitative, some quantitative.
Mostly interested in:
Perception, techniques to aid perception for terrain, other stuff.
Approaches to backcountry avalanche forecasting that people can actually learn.
Systems-thinking approaches / information science methods for avalanche education.
Oh, and J. Oker:
I'm totally against all three of those: Surveyors tape, global warming and photo limits!
(just to throw my two cents at those topics...
I'm totally against all three of those: Surveyors tape, global warming and photo limits!
(just to throw my two cents at those topics...
That's right Rafmax;
I hate America (that's why I like Obama- he's not from here. Just ask the "birthers") and I hate freedom (that's why I stopped telemarking and picked up A.T.).
;-)
J. Oker;
the truth is that I responded because I really like the natural dichotomy and the phonetic beauty of the phrase; "spring fields full of poo". It rolls so nicely...
I hate America (that's why I like Obama- he's not from here. Just ask the "birthers") and I hate freedom (that's why I stopped telemarking and picked up A.T.).
;-)
J. Oker;
the truth is that I responded because I really like the natural dichotomy and the phonetic beauty of the phrase; "spring fields full of poo". It rolls so nicely...
Heh -- fortunately I got a full refund back at the car, and they paid for my beer in North Bend.
Half of that is true, half imagination.
Half of that is true, half imagination.
As a member of the 8 on this day, I wouldn't say it was skiing to the car. In turning around before the upper portion, we were entertained with controlling downhill momentum on the up track under, around and over the not quite buried Mt Catherine. But I was going "down", so I count it as "skiing". The run down "Dinosaur" was a nice finish to a day of training. Always nice to practice staying dry on a day like Sunday!!
god those pictures make me ache in joy and anticipation
Let me guess - still less people on the hill then there were fresh new snow in cms?
Let me guess - still less people on the hill then there were fresh new snow in cms?
Marcus~
The silt fences were covered up on Sunday morning...good luck on the base grind... ;D
The silt fences were covered up on Sunday morning...good luck on the base grind... ;D
Hmm, I missed them somehow. You should get your money back on your ticket.
Very nice. That area is high on the list of places that get me pondering whether sleds are just too much gear to mess with or not...
Are the silt fences covered up yet on the edges of the road grade? Hyak management owes me a base grind.
It wasn't that much better before 8. The snow probably got a little heavier after that but the face was still really bumpy. I haven't skied it much but it was worse than I remembered. Perhaps I have only been there with more coverage or maybe the recent grading after the slide caused that. It was still nice to have turns so close to town in Nov.
I like the heuristic perspective-out of curiousity, are you a self taught recreational or academic? Thanks, regardless
author=artiszen link=topic=14583.msg61010#msg61010 date=1259015280]
There is a non-backcountry posting section : )
...ah, but then many of us would have missed the opportunity to learn of some serendipitous alternatives to expensive medical treatments. I plan to avail myself of the experience at the nearest opportunity. Perhaps our esteemed political leaders should be encouraged to explore more of these, in lieu of meaningful healthcare...