TR Replies
author=savegondor link=topic=30686.msg128610#msg128610 date=1392247119]
I do think skiing from OB into IB on cowboy should probably be prohibited on Cowboy. and maybe it already is. just seems like a liability disaster waiting to happen. my slide didn't hurt anyone...but the other skier involved probably lost his ski forever under 10-12 feet of snow.
In Whistler there are lots of areas that are "out of bounds"...
my only input on the FLY is that given the conditions there doesn't really seem to be a safe zone anywhere in those pics you offered. if i'm going to take some chances I'm going to look at something that has a nice ridge-line...like those AK skiers do with all their 'sluff-management' skilz. probably a topic for hot air. i digress.
author=Robert Connor link=topic=30686.msg128584#msg128584 date=1392226082]
I too have triggered a slide on Cowboy Ridge. I think it was too small to endanger people below me, but I don't know for sure. I do know that it was scary as hell being carried towards a tree studded gully thinking "this is not good, this is not good, gotta stop." I am shaking enough it is hard to type just thinking back to it.
I don't know that I can b...
Thanks for all of the good replies everyone. There have been some very useful thoughts posted here, many of which we will likely incorporate into our routine. In response to Aaron_Wright's post about the rib, I am not sure if that was really a terrain feature or not, as I have not been there in the summer time. If it was from avalanche deposition, it was still significant enough in size to confine the slide to that one path down the fan. Also, I agree that it is poss...
Interesting. Good post incident analysis. You guys essential ski cut the wind slab from below. Is that rib where skier 1 stopped really a terrain feature or the debris fan from Zipper? It looks like if you had skied the fall line out of the coolie that you might have avoided the slab. Not that it matters, as you've noted you shouldn't have been there.
author=savegondor link=topic=30686.msg128433#msg128433 date=1392054920]
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid. as are some of the openings patrol have done in my experience. I've set off a couple on cowboy ridge that to my shame put others in danger. and i've seen some good wet snow slides at crystal run into the groomers and endanger many a gaper.
I too have triggered a slide on Cowboy Ridge. I think it...
author=Roger Strong link=topic=30730.msg128570#msg128570 date=1392217926]
breaking trail on 6" of heavy new at 5:45am, 3,200ft...telemetry was correct and knowing it was going to be a lower angle lap through old growth, we were curious of the 18" of new above 5k...pit profile at 5,200 answered expectations:
isolated CT on WSW 28 degree slope; 155cm from surface to 9 day old rain crust (bonding to that layer is decent and could not find the...
Thanks for the update Roj - this weekend could be quite a mess! Glad you're out getting some cardio :)
Thanks for the report. I see you just moved to Wenatchee. Hope to get to ski with you one of these days.
Here is Jeff Ward's report at Stevens Pass for same day: spooky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mw7xQgL4eY
Here is Jeff Ward's report at Stevens Pass for same day: spooky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mw7xQgL4eY
Well said Nick, totally agreed. Great days don't necessarily have to be on the gnarlyist of the gnar. We kept it mellow, lapping the SE slopes of the Castle-Foss area, skipping among big pockets of crazy light and fun wind deposit. No instabilities were observed and a good time was had by all. Low stress, high reward skiing. Doesn't get much better!
Glad you all had a great day out. It was cool running into you guys at Safeway; we'll have to get after it sometime. Nips...
Glad you all had a great day out. It was cool running into you guys at Safeway; we'll have to get after it sometime. Nips...
Good to see you still skiing powder and still stump finding ;) My side is starting to shape up!
Thank you for sharing your experience, which hopefully has led you to what I have come to call a Risk Assessment Reset Episode. All of our actions in the mountains involve some element of risk and usually the risk tolerance is determined by our level of experience, confidence in our abilities, and our confidence in our own assessments, which can often be jaded by "what we were able to get a away within the past". These RARE moments, are to my mind are critical parts to avalanche awaren...
author=Micah link=topic=30686.msg128523#msg128523 date=1392141482]
I wanted to ask if you (folks involved in this incident and the community generally) think assessing the snow in the couloir from the top after climbing up another route would have worked out better. I'm not familiar with the area, so I don't know if the line can be accessed in a way other than climbing it or if alternate up tracks are any safer. I am not advocating for one practice o...
Thanks so much for posting your experiences. I'm sure it is not easy to do in front of your community, but your report is a big service to the the rest of us. I'm glad all the recent close calls have turned out OK and that there was no serious injury or loss of life.
I wanted to ask if you (folks involved in this incident and the community generally) think assessing the snow in the couloir from the top after climbing up another route would have worked out better. I'm no...
I wanted to ask if you (folks involved in this incident and the community generally) think assessing the snow in the couloir from the top after climbing up another route would have worked out better. I'm no...
author=patrick link=topic=30686.msg128465#msg128465 date=1392068201]
1) How confident am I of my assessment? Even 99% confidence isn't enough when a slide would be disastrous. I developed this rule after thinking back on a great day that definitely violated it.
2) How robust is my assessment to changing conditions? If only one condition needs to change for your argument for safety to collapse, then you run a good chance of being surprised. I�...
Wow, fabulous review of your avalanche incident from both of you.
A couple of thoughts. It sounds like you have a firm grip on what happened. I like to think about having a risk profile. And as skier number one (DCM) said in his write-up, his profile was becoming too risky and he was aware of that.
Chamois brought up a good point when he spoke of communication. I think that is particularly true if one is the lead duck. It is important to stop and talk over your choices and...
A couple of thoughts. It sounds like you have a firm grip on what happened. I like to think about having a risk profile. And as skier number one (DCM) said in his write-up, his profile was becoming too risky and he was aware of that.
Chamois brought up a good point when he spoke of communication. I think that is particularly true if one is the lead duck. It is important to stop and talk over your choices and...
We were skiing the north slopes to the west of point 6479. Snow conditions were 18 inches of unconsolidated fluff on an icy crust. Dug a pit lower down and got CT 16 on the new snow/old snow interface on what looked like facets. More facets apparent lower down on top of the icy crust. Conditions above the crust were totally unconsolidated. I noted some avalanche activity in the form of dry sluff...
Thank you for posting!
Thanks for sharing your experiences---it is brave and a really useful analysis of what went wrong. Much appreciated.
Savegondor said:
Just my input and just so you know if you hit a 'rocky mountain snowpack' all bets are off in the trees. the only OB AVI i've ever been privileged to experience was on a 20 degree slope in thick trees. not steep. in trees. well 'anchored'. hoar frost. it was fast, it was dangerous. i was lucky.
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid.
I've climbed lots of big walls and big mountains, rafted d...
Just my input and just so you know if you hit a 'rocky mountain snowpack' all bets are off in the trees. the only OB AVI i've ever been privileged to experience was on a 20 degree slope in thick trees. not steep. in trees. well 'anchored'. hoar frost. it was fast, it was dangerous. i was lucky.
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid.
I've climbed lots of big walls and big mountains, rafted d...
We had a fantastic time, and a huge thanks to everyone that helped make the race a success. The lodge was wonderful place, and I highly recommend a stay if you have not had the pleasure, a snippet of the kinship of skiing.
author=calvinh4 link=topic=30708.msg128484#msg128484 date=1392079478]
... ended back-tracking after whumpfing and cracking
We were north of you a bit toward Norse Peak, same day probably same time, and found the same conditions and backtracked twice. Maybe two dozen whoomphs. Often with cracking, once with a large 50ft radius area collapsing (not steep enough to slide). The layer below the older crust is weak, loose and probably...
Thanks for writing this report and do not feel bad this happened. It can happen to anyone that ventures into the backcountry. All you can do is digest it and learn from it.
By writing this you helped me. This is an area I will definitely avoid. I was playing around there last year and it sure had a lot of avalanche debris. Much appreciated report, very well written.
By writing this you helped me. This is an area I will definitely avoid. I was playing around there last year and it sure had a lot of avalanche debris. Much appreciated report, very well written.
We rode the east face of Pickhandle Ridge and found 18+" of perfectly unconsolidated snow over a firm base. The wind effect started right at the 6K level, but no cracking or settling and we stayed low for three short runs of face shots and trees. No sluffing or sliding but we did see some natural releases on the opposite side of the basin.
This was my first time at Crystal since last season and the coverage was still quite low with a few open creeks and downed logs to ride over.
This was my first time at Crystal since last season and the coverage was still quite low with a few open creeks and downed logs to ride over.
Also on the snowpack note, I went up and climber Persis near Index yesterday. On the ridge we found some very significant wind slabs, on section strong enough to take my full weight with crampons. Just next to it a whomping sound and shooting cracks...........twenty feet away completely non-cohesive blower. Localized wind is tricky.
Thanks! I do have to admit that I've made my own mistakes before, more then once, but I'm getting better at saying no.
Kerwinl I was the splitboarder with a bright orange jacket, I don't think I saw anyone else snowboarding on Saturday. It was definitely a good day, it's nice when the snow is dry and a few crossed tracks don't matter :)
Kerwinl I was the splitboarder with a bright orange jacket, I don't think I saw anyone else snowboarding on Saturday. It was definitely a good day, it's nice when the snow is dry and a few crossed tracks don't matter :)
I'm with Billk on this. Embarrassing is a good word for the situation. Just a note to all, "this year is going to be different" keep it in mind, it reminds me of winter 1977. I climbed more than i skied in those years.
greg
greg
One of the coolest reports I've ever read. Seems like people on forums often try to puff their chests no matter what the conditions or situation they encounter. I'm stoked to see a report that admits to playing it safe and just having fun!
We were xc skiing nearby, along Gold Creek yesterday afternoon. It appeared that there had been some freezing rain earlier yesterday.
Yeah, those wide open clearcut slopes that you used to be able to ski at will on the Stump and in some other nearby hillsides have become challenging mazes even when we have >100% normal snowpack. Trees grow!
Yeah, those wide open clearcut slopes that you used to be able to ski at will on the Stump and in some other nearby hillsides have become challenging mazes even when we have >100% normal snowpack. Trees grow!
I was up there later in day, was wondering what army had left all those tracks at the top, and how they got there, when I hadn't seen a continuous skin track until I was 90% to the top on the wraparound road. I went up via the Yellowstone Road way. I believe that the clock (calendar?) is ticking on how much longer going that way is viable. The lower half once reaching the clearcut line, especially nearer Coal Creek, keeps getting more and more filled in with medium size trees that are choki...
Nice report.
The guys in my party and I were hoping to ski the Tat on Saturday as well, but we pulled the plug after the new snow and continued winds. We consistently crossed path all day as we lapped the mellow ridge lines along the road, I was wearing bright green pants and a bright blue jacket.
It looks like the snowpack was sketchy statewide over the weekend, glad everyone is okay and had fun.
The guys in my party and I were hoping to ski the Tat on Saturday as well, but we pulled the plug after the new snow and continued winds. We consistently crossed path all day as we lapped the mellow ridge lines along the road, I was wearing bright green pants and a bright blue jacket.
It looks like the snowpack was sketchy statewide over the weekend, glad everyone is okay and had fun.
author=patrick link=topic=30686.msg128465#msg128465 date=1392068201]
Skiers 1 and 2, thanks for sharing your leaning experience with us, and thanks for you detailed analysis. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's experienced a similar mindset approaching an objecting. This is a reminder we can all use.
A lesson I've beef lucky to learn cheaply is the danger inherent in "advanced" decision-making. I don't know if...
Skiers 1 and 2, thanks for sharing your leaning experience with us, and thanks for you detailed analysis. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's experienced a similar mindset approaching an objecting. This is a reminder we can all use.
A lesson I've beef lucky to learn cheaply is the danger inherent in "advanced" decision-making. I don't know if this comment applies to your particular case, but either way it's worth adding....
A lesson I've beef lucky to learn cheaply is the danger inherent in "advanced" decision-making. I don't know if this comment applies to your particular case, but either way it's worth adding....
Thanks so much for the narrative and photos.
Just a couple of added observations. It seems that you knew, somewhere in your brain, about the risks you were taking. But these were not verbalized either on the ascent or the descent. I've gotten into the habitat of initiating discussions on the "avy plan" at several junctions - at the car, at the beginning of a terrain change, and before the descent.
Possibly if you had these discussion...
Just a couple of added observations. It seems that you knew, somewhere in your brain, about the risks you were taking. But these were not verbalized either on the ascent or the descent. I've gotten into the habitat of initiating discussions on the "avy plan" at several junctions - at the car, at the beginning of a terrain change, and before the descent.
Possibly if you had these discussion...
Thanks for posting the results Silas.
I just want to make a correction to our team which consisted of myself, Jed Yeiser and Luke Shy who was a last minuet substitute for Nick Middleton. Thanks for stepping up Luke!
Great race everyone,
Cody
I just want to make a correction to our team which consisted of myself, Jed Yeiser and Luke Shy who was a last minuet substitute for Nick Middleton. Thanks for stepping up Luke!
Great race everyone,
Cody
^^^^That's a great idea Andrew!
DCM, that is a great write up, acknowledging the power of positive reinforcement over warning signs and a priori information. Yes, there will be an increasing danger of complacency for just the same reason.
One suggestion occurred to me: print out your write-up, put it in a baggies, and rubber band it around your transceiver every evening after skiing. It probably is the absolute best reminder you will have about the psychology of decision making.
Glad you guys are ok.
One suggestion occurred to me: print out your write-up, put it in a baggies, and rubber band it around your transceiver every evening after skiing. It probably is the absolute best reminder you will have about the psychology of decision making.
Glad you guys are ok.
wow, thanks for posting this up and glad you are OK
Indeed, very good self-analysis. Examining our thinking and decision-making is probably the most important thing we can do. Go or no-go is probably the simplist, but hardest and most critical decision we can make.
The one time I "got slid" was very avoidable and should not have happened....lots of no-go signs. Even a few yards away would have been safer.
The one time I "got slid" was very avoidable and should not have happened....lots of no-go signs. Even a few yards away would have been safer.
Thanks for the write up Nick. After reading about the avy on Lane I feel even better about the decisions we made yesterday. Not only did we have an awesome time in blower powder, but we had enough energy to help a guy in need at the end of the day. All of us were committed to having a safe time first and foremost, and we facilitated open and honest communication where everyone felt like their input was valuable. I'm definitely going to take this lesson wi...
Thanks for the awesome trip report - I shared it on the Mountaineers Facebook Page.
I am also in for next year! #teamtutu
I am also in for next year! #teamtutu
DCM, that is an extremely well considered analysis. Thank you for speaking with such honesty and humility.
I was skier #1 on this trip. As the more experienced person I feel responsible (and embarrassed by - as someone else mentioned above) for the many poor choices that we made that day. I wanted to write down my thoughts on what happened, as well as run through my version of the day’s events. Mostly, I think writing this down will help me better organize my thoughts on the day, but since someone else may benefit from this as well I will post this here. Sorry for the long write-up.
Fo...
Fo...
Why aren't there any trees in that area?
I'll take a different tack. You should be embarassed by your decision-making. That objective during a period of considerable danger is just dumb. You really need to consider your perception of your skills, and the actions you take as a result of those perceptions. Glad you made it out OK.
Just my input and just so you know if you hit a 'rocky mountain snowpack' all bets are off in the trees. the only OB AVI i've ever been privileged to experience was on a 20 degree slope in thick trees. not steep. in trees. well 'anchored'. hoar frost. it was fast, it was dangerous. i was lucky.
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid. as are some of the openings patrol have done in my experience.&...
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid. as are some of the openings patrol have done in my experience.&...
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[img width=800]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/12389244773_dc07d95fdc_h.jpg" />
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[img width=800]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7299/12389555894_6ea43b8774_h.jpg" />
Very cool. Thanks for the report. I'm in for next year!