TR Replies
Thanks so much for posting your experiences. I'm sure it is not easy to do in front of your community, but your report is a big service to the the rest of us. I'm glad all the recent close calls have turned out OK and that there was no serious injury or loss of life.
I wanted to ask if you (folks involved in this incident and the community generally) think assessing the snow in the couloir from the top after climbing up another route would have worked out better. I'm no...
I wanted to ask if you (folks involved in this incident and the community generally) think assessing the snow in the couloir from the top after climbing up another route would have worked out better. I'm no...
author=patrick link=topic=30686.msg128465#msg128465 date=1392068201]
1) How confident am I of my assessment? Even 99% confidence isn't enough when a slide would be disastrous. I developed this rule after thinking back on a great day that definitely violated it.
2) How robust is my assessment to changing conditions? If only one condition needs to change for your argument for safety to collapse, then you run a good chance of being surprised. I�...
Wow, fabulous review of your avalanche incident from both of you.
A couple of thoughts. It sounds like you have a firm grip on what happened. I like to think about having a risk profile. And as skier number one (DCM) said in his write-up, his profile was becoming too risky and he was aware of that.
Chamois brought up a good point when he spoke of communication. I think that is particularly true if one is the lead duck. It is important to stop and talk over your choices and...
A couple of thoughts. It sounds like you have a firm grip on what happened. I like to think about having a risk profile. And as skier number one (DCM) said in his write-up, his profile was becoming too risky and he was aware of that.
Chamois brought up a good point when he spoke of communication. I think that is particularly true if one is the lead duck. It is important to stop and talk over your choices and...
We were skiing the north slopes to the west of point 6479. Snow conditions were 18 inches of unconsolidated fluff on an icy crust. Dug a pit lower down and got CT 16 on the new snow/old snow interface on what looked like facets. More facets apparent lower down on top of the icy crust. Conditions above the crust were totally unconsolidated. I noted some avalanche activity in the form of dry sluff...
Thank you for posting!
Thanks for sharing your experiences---it is brave and a really useful analysis of what went wrong. Much appreciated.
Savegondor said:
Just my input and just so you know if you hit a 'rocky mountain snowpack' all bets are off in the trees. the only OB AVI i've ever been privileged to experience was on a 20 degree slope in thick trees. not steep. in trees. well 'anchored'. hoar frost. it was fast, it was dangerous. i was lucky.
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid.
I've climbed lots of big walls and big mountains, rafted d...
Just my input and just so you know if you hit a 'rocky mountain snowpack' all bets are off in the trees. the only OB AVI i've ever been privileged to experience was on a 20 degree slope in thick trees. not steep. in trees. well 'anchored'. hoar frost. it was fast, it was dangerous. i was lucky.
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid.
I've climbed lots of big walls and big mountains, rafted d...
We had a fantastic time, and a huge thanks to everyone that helped make the race a success. The lodge was wonderful place, and I highly recommend a stay if you have not had the pleasure, a snippet of the kinship of skiing.
author=calvinh4 link=topic=30708.msg128484#msg128484 date=1392079478]
... ended back-tracking after whumpfing and cracking
We were north of you a bit toward Norse Peak, same day probably same time, and found the same conditions and backtracked twice. Maybe two dozen whoomphs. Often with cracking, once with a large 50ft radius area collapsing (not steep enough to slide). The layer below the older crust is weak, loose and probably...
Thanks for writing this report and do not feel bad this happened. It can happen to anyone that ventures into the backcountry. All you can do is digest it and learn from it.
By writing this you helped me. This is an area I will definitely avoid. I was playing around there last year and it sure had a lot of avalanche debris. Much appreciated report, very well written.
By writing this you helped me. This is an area I will definitely avoid. I was playing around there last year and it sure had a lot of avalanche debris. Much appreciated report, very well written.
We rode the east face of Pickhandle Ridge and found 18+" of perfectly unconsolidated snow over a firm base. The wind effect started right at the 6K level, but no cracking or settling and we stayed low for three short runs of face shots and trees. No sluffing or sliding but we did see some natural releases on the opposite side of the basin.
This was my first time at Crystal since last season and the coverage was still quite low with a few open creeks and downed logs to ride over.
This was my first time at Crystal since last season and the coverage was still quite low with a few open creeks and downed logs to ride over.
Also on the snowpack note, I went up and climber Persis near Index yesterday. On the ridge we found some very significant wind slabs, on section strong enough to take my full weight with crampons. Just next to it a whomping sound and shooting cracks...........twenty feet away completely non-cohesive blower. Localized wind is tricky.
Thanks! I do have to admit that I've made my own mistakes before, more then once, but I'm getting better at saying no.
Kerwinl I was the splitboarder with a bright orange jacket, I don't think I saw anyone else snowboarding on Saturday. It was definitely a good day, it's nice when the snow is dry and a few crossed tracks don't matter :)
Kerwinl I was the splitboarder with a bright orange jacket, I don't think I saw anyone else snowboarding on Saturday. It was definitely a good day, it's nice when the snow is dry and a few crossed tracks don't matter :)
I'm with Billk on this. Embarrassing is a good word for the situation. Just a note to all, "this year is going to be different" keep it in mind, it reminds me of winter 1977. I climbed more than i skied in those years.
greg
greg
One of the coolest reports I've ever read. Seems like people on forums often try to puff their chests no matter what the conditions or situation they encounter. I'm stoked to see a report that admits to playing it safe and just having fun!
We were xc skiing nearby, along Gold Creek yesterday afternoon. It appeared that there had been some freezing rain earlier yesterday.
Yeah, those wide open clearcut slopes that you used to be able to ski at will on the Stump and in some other nearby hillsides have become challenging mazes even when we have >100% normal snowpack. Trees grow!
Yeah, those wide open clearcut slopes that you used to be able to ski at will on the Stump and in some other nearby hillsides have become challenging mazes even when we have >100% normal snowpack. Trees grow!
I was up there later in day, was wondering what army had left all those tracks at the top, and how they got there, when I hadn't seen a continuous skin track until I was 90% to the top on the wraparound road. I went up via the Yellowstone Road way. I believe that the clock (calendar?) is ticking on how much longer going that way is viable. The lower half once reaching the clearcut line, especially nearer Coal Creek, keeps getting more and more filled in with medium size trees that are choki...
Nice report.
The guys in my party and I were hoping to ski the Tat on Saturday as well, but we pulled the plug after the new snow and continued winds. We consistently crossed path all day as we lapped the mellow ridge lines along the road, I was wearing bright green pants and a bright blue jacket.
It looks like the snowpack was sketchy statewide over the weekend, glad everyone is okay and had fun.
The guys in my party and I were hoping to ski the Tat on Saturday as well, but we pulled the plug after the new snow and continued winds. We consistently crossed path all day as we lapped the mellow ridge lines along the road, I was wearing bright green pants and a bright blue jacket.
It looks like the snowpack was sketchy statewide over the weekend, glad everyone is okay and had fun.
author=patrick link=topic=30686.msg128465#msg128465 date=1392068201]
Skiers 1 and 2, thanks for sharing your leaning experience with us, and thanks for you detailed analysis. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's experienced a similar mindset approaching an objecting. This is a reminder we can all use.
A lesson I've beef lucky to learn cheaply is the danger inherent in "advanced" decision-making. I don't know if...
Skiers 1 and 2, thanks for sharing your leaning experience with us, and thanks for you detailed analysis. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's experienced a similar mindset approaching an objecting. This is a reminder we can all use.
A lesson I've beef lucky to learn cheaply is the danger inherent in "advanced" decision-making. I don't know if this comment applies to your particular case, but either way it's worth adding....
A lesson I've beef lucky to learn cheaply is the danger inherent in "advanced" decision-making. I don't know if this comment applies to your particular case, but either way it's worth adding....
Thanks so much for the narrative and photos.
Just a couple of added observations. It seems that you knew, somewhere in your brain, about the risks you were taking. But these were not verbalized either on the ascent or the descent. I've gotten into the habitat of initiating discussions on the "avy plan" at several junctions - at the car, at the beginning of a terrain change, and before the descent.
Possibly if you had these discussion...
Just a couple of added observations. It seems that you knew, somewhere in your brain, about the risks you were taking. But these were not verbalized either on the ascent or the descent. I've gotten into the habitat of initiating discussions on the "avy plan" at several junctions - at the car, at the beginning of a terrain change, and before the descent.
Possibly if you had these discussion...
Thanks for posting the results Silas.
I just want to make a correction to our team which consisted of myself, Jed Yeiser and Luke Shy who was a last minuet substitute for Nick Middleton. Thanks for stepping up Luke!
Great race everyone,
Cody
I just want to make a correction to our team which consisted of myself, Jed Yeiser and Luke Shy who was a last minuet substitute for Nick Middleton. Thanks for stepping up Luke!
Great race everyone,
Cody
^^^^That's a great idea Andrew!
DCM, that is a great write up, acknowledging the power of positive reinforcement over warning signs and a priori information. Yes, there will be an increasing danger of complacency for just the same reason.
One suggestion occurred to me: print out your write-up, put it in a baggies, and rubber band it around your transceiver every evening after skiing. It probably is the absolute best reminder you will have about the psychology of decision making.
Glad you guys are ok.
One suggestion occurred to me: print out your write-up, put it in a baggies, and rubber band it around your transceiver every evening after skiing. It probably is the absolute best reminder you will have about the psychology of decision making.
Glad you guys are ok.
wow, thanks for posting this up and glad you are OK
Indeed, very good self-analysis. Examining our thinking and decision-making is probably the most important thing we can do. Go or no-go is probably the simplist, but hardest and most critical decision we can make.
The one time I "got slid" was very avoidable and should not have happened....lots of no-go signs. Even a few yards away would have been safer.
The one time I "got slid" was very avoidable and should not have happened....lots of no-go signs. Even a few yards away would have been safer.
Thanks for the write up Nick. After reading about the avy on Lane I feel even better about the decisions we made yesterday. Not only did we have an awesome time in blower powder, but we had enough energy to help a guy in need at the end of the day. All of us were committed to having a safe time first and foremost, and we facilitated open and honest communication where everyone felt like their input was valuable. I'm definitely going to take this lesson wi...
Thanks for the awesome trip report - I shared it on the Mountaineers Facebook Page.
I am also in for next year! #teamtutu
I am also in for next year! #teamtutu
DCM, that is an extremely well considered analysis. Thank you for speaking with such honesty and humility.
I was skier #1 on this trip. As the more experienced person I feel responsible (and embarrassed by - as someone else mentioned above) for the many poor choices that we made that day. I wanted to write down my thoughts on what happened, as well as run through my version of the day’s events. Mostly, I think writing this down will help me better organize my thoughts on the day, but since someone else may benefit from this as well I will post this here. Sorry for the long write-up.
Fo...
Fo...
Why aren't there any trees in that area?
I'll take a different tack. You should be embarassed by your decision-making. That objective during a period of considerable danger is just dumb. You really need to consider your perception of your skills, and the actions you take as a result of those perceptions. Glad you made it out OK.
Just my input and just so you know if you hit a 'rocky mountain snowpack' all bets are off in the trees. the only OB AVI i've ever been privileged to experience was on a 20 degree slope in thick trees. not steep. in trees. well 'anchored'. hoar frost. it was fast, it was dangerous. i was lucky.
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid. as are some of the openings patrol have done in my experience.&...
but in bounds being safe? that's just plain stupid. as are some of the openings patrol have done in my experience.&...
[img width=800]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3721/12389119845_b6b414e003_h.jpg" />
[img width=800]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/12389244773_dc07d95fdc_h.jpg" />
[img width=800]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7299/12389555894_6ea43b8774_h.jpg" />
[img width=800]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/12389244773_dc07d95fdc_h.jpg" />
[img width=800]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7299/12389555894_6ea43b8774_h.jpg" />
Very cool. Thanks for the report. I'm in for next year!
So cool that Wolf is still alive and interested to hear the results, and to think about he did the race himself at about the age many of us are now, on equipment he would have considered modern at the time, like the equipment we consider modern now.
author=CookieMonster link=topic=30686.msg128404#msg128404 date=1392004855]
Usually you can go out in most conditions ( even high danger ) and do whatever you want without any consequences at all. A friend of mind is fond of saying "Did you make the right decision or did you get away with it?". You ignored a bunch of red flags and didn't get away with it, but I've done far worse many times.
For decision-making in avalanche terrain...
Awesome event. Jamie told me how great the lodge is. Sounds like a good place to take my family. I hope this race is held again next year. I missed it this year, but I'd love to be part of it.
Glad you're okay, thanks for the TR. Two thoughts:
The NWAC forecast is a broad, general tool - it's not meant to be applied to slope-scale decisions (e.g. the Fly is near treeline = moderate).
Pits are great indicators of what's going on in that immediate vicinity (i.e., within 4-5 feet), but are kind of like the opposite of the NWAC forecast - they're not very good predictors of stability even 10 feet away when the terrain is complex. ...
The NWAC forecast is a broad, general tool - it's not meant to be applied to slope-scale decisions (e.g. the Fly is near treeline = moderate).
Pits are great indicators of what's going on in that immediate vicinity (i.e., within 4-5 feet), but are kind of like the opposite of the NWAC forecast - they're not very good predictors of stability even 10 feet away when the terrain is complex. ...
author=EvryDayzSatday link=topic=30690.msg128381#msg128381 date=1391994725]
The night before I had looked over NWAC and the forecast for 'near treeline' (which is what I would consider the couloir, pls comment if you disagree?) was moderate.
I think that is such a great question with the new format to the forecast. I have been trying to interpret it from the perspective of wind exposure and anchoring potential and not...
I, too, am very appreciative of you sharing this experience.
I am wondering what your guess of the slope angle at the crown would be. I do not see it in the write up, maybe I missed it.
Glad you came out without injury.
I am wondering what your guess of the slope angle at the crown would be. I do not see it in the write up, maybe I missed it.
Glad you came out without injury.
author=CookieMonster link=topic=30686.msg128404#msg128404 date=1392004855]
A friend of mind is fond of saying "Did you make the right decision or did you get away with it?".
Dang! Glad you made it out, and props on the self arrest!
Results:
Cody Lourie 7:09
Jed Yeiser
Luke Shy
Jason Hummel 7:29
Kyle Miller
Oliver Lazenby
Doug Bardsley 8:11
Brian Finerow
Roy Peterson
Colin Johnson 9:15
Adam Frey
Steve Moenaert
Bruce Jahnke 9:18
Patrick Stanton
name? name?
Jason Kuo 9:56
Rob Stephenson
Gavin Woody
Andy Dapp...
Cody Lourie 7:09
Jed Yeiser
Luke Shy
Jason Hummel 7:29
Kyle Miller
Oliver Lazenby
Doug Bardsley 8:11
Brian Finerow
Roy Peterson
Colin Johnson 9:15
Adam Frey
Steve Moenaert
Bruce Jahnke 9:18
Patrick Stanton
name? name?
Jason Kuo 9:56
Rob Stephenson
Gavin Woody
Andy Dapp...
Glad you made it out sans gear without injury. Easy to buy gear, money won't buy your health.
Far left in the first pic is lovers lane, then zipper and fly. I don't know that offshoot climbers right is named. I've been in the zipper before when a west wind wrapped around the mountain and came billowing up the couloir. Don't think those walls a
will block westerly or easterly winds.
Far left in the first pic is lovers lane, then zipper and fly. I don't know that offshoot climbers right is named. I've been in the zipper before when a west wind wrapped around the mountain and came billowing up the couloir. Don't think those walls a
will block westerly or easterly winds.
Bummer to hear that Seth was hurt Fri night. I was working that night and we were quite busy w/ city league injuries but I didn't see Seth. Heal up quick Seth!
Lowell, Brandon and Seth would certainly be a tough team to beat!
Great shot of Brandon crossing Mirror Lake Lowell.
JK
Lowell, Brandon and Seth would certainly be a tough team to beat!
Great shot of Brandon crossing Mirror Lake Lowell.
JK
author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=30687.msg128393#msg128393 date=1391998918]Brandon and I raced as an unofficial team after our third member (Seth) was injured racing City League slalom on Friday night.
Bummer. I was wondering about the "twoguys" caption in Silas' picture. Great work on the part of all the participants, though.
Usually you can go out in most conditions ( even high danger ) and do whatever you want without any consequences at all. A friend of mind is fond of saying "Did you make the right decision or did you get away with it?". You ignored a bunch of red flags and didn't get away with it, but I've done far worse many times.
It's really hard to know how to manage your state of mind. I mean, in life in general, at least it is for me. It takes me a lot of effort on most...
It's really hard to know how to manage your state of mind. I mean, in life in general, at least it is for me. It takes me a lot of effort on most...
No flame and very pleased that you were fine. But since you asked....
I am not a backcountry expert or snow expert, but I have skied an extremely large amount of powder miles. After a lifetime of west coast skiing, I have been lucky enough to have had a seasons pass at Whistler for the last 15 years. A combination of in and out of bounds skiing on big terrain has taught me three things: (of course I've broken these rules from time to time)
Save your steep...
I am not a backcountry expert or snow expert, but I have skied an extremely large amount of powder miles. After a lifetime of west coast skiing, I have been lucky enough to have had a seasons pass at Whistler for the last 15 years. A combination of in and out of bounds skiing on big terrain has taught me three things: (of course I've broken these rules from time to time)
Save your steep...