Avalanches on Red and Granite

Why stop there? People do stupid things in the summer too and in the city. Maybe we should require a special license for anyone who ventures out-of-doors. You should have to pass a safety test to go for a run or a walk around the block, or to do some yardwork in your own back yard.

I would have thought the reason was obvious--when was the last time a rescue person died from assisting someone walking around the block and when have they closed sidewalks or streets to public access because a runner/pedestrian died?  But then again ... once again ... the XXX amendment/commandment states it is a guaranteed freedom to be ignorant and irresponsible and to take actions that impinge on other people's life, liberty, and happiness and the only recourse is to close everything/dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator for everyone.

Apologies in advance if this is widely known as I admit to not having taken much time yet to read all the varioius media accounts of these two accidents, but do we know if either party was equipped with basic backcountry equipment including beacons/probes/shovels?

It is my personal opinion that a winter backcountry license should be required of anyone going backcountry on public lands when snow is on the ground with a special license for those leading trips.

I disagree. What are you going to do, post a guard at every possible entrance to the backcountry along with a 'snow on the ground' monitor?

This whole system quickly spins out of control: We need a sign. Oh, there was a sign. We need a BIGGER sign. And in two..no three...no, ALL languages. Meanwhile virtually no one here had ever even noticed the signs that are already there. So we need licenses. Oh, and then enforcement, which means costs and fees and fines.

What would help is more personal accountability; we need people thinking for themselves, asking if their situation is safe and if they know enough to answer that question. Not expecting to be told by NWAC, a whiteboard, a bigger sign, a ranger, or a trip leader. The Mountaineers have had, in my experience, an inordinate number of members, including trip leaders, die on outings. Their systems don't seem like a good model to me at all.

What I think could genuinely help is a generalized awareness campaign letting people know that virtually ALL trailheads in the Cascades do, in the winter, lead to terrain where have or could be killed by avalanches and that trees do NOT equate to safety. The winter Source Lake trail is a perfect example; people have been killed on it ten minutes from the lot. The Haystack gully on Si... Pan Face and Alta Vista...the list is close to endless. If there's money for awareness campaigns like "Click It or Ticket", there should be money for something like this.

Unless people look inward (personal decisions based on knowledge) rather than outward (signs, NWAC, rangers, ski patrol, etc.) for their personal safety, events like these will, I am afraid. continue with regularity.

What would help is more personal accountability; we need people thinking for themselves, asking if their situation is safe and if they know enough to answer that question. Not expecting to be told by NWAC, a whiteboard, a bigger sign, a ranger, or a trip leader. The Mountaineers have had, in my experience, an inordinate number of members, including trip leaders, die on outings. Their systems don't seem like a good model to me at all.

Unless people look inward (personal decisions based on knowledge) rather than outward (signs, NWAC, rangers, ski patrol, etc.) for their personal safety, events like these will, I am afraid. continue with regularity.

Ahh..A voice of reason...Do we really need no smoking signs at gas pumps?
Boy, I was fortunate enough to dodge a lot of outdoor bullets before some semblance of common sense kicked in. Not sure signs would have helped my stubborn ass out.
Then after I survived a share of my own crazy stunts and see my share of dead skiers I become more vigilant to save the world from my mistakes.
Like telling people what to do, signs, communications, avy warning tags on outdoor gear ect..
After some time I have learned that no matter how many signs, communication and the like people are going to do what they want to do even if it's sailing into a hurricane forecast.
Still there sometimes remains the intrinsic voice inside my head that says driving the wrong way up a one way road sounds like a good idea. But fortunately that is not my dominating driver and you aren't in my truck.

Bottom Line**The unfortunate part is that people have to go out and rescue/recover those who don't check the weather and put 2 and 2 together.
And those who do that job are tired of doing it and deserve a lot of respect and I understand their driving belief that signage may deter or pause for thought even the most stubborn idiot like I was and sometimes still am.

I would have thought the reason was obvious--when was the last time a rescue person died from assisting someone walking around the block and when have they closed sidewalks or streets to public access because a runner/pedestrian died?  But then again ... once again ... the XXX amendment/commandment states it is a guaranteed freedom to be ignorant and irresponsible and to take actions that impinge on other people's life, liberty, and happiness and the only recourse is to close everything/dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator for everyone.

I suppose your argument is valid if all rescuers were forced into hazardous terrain to save victims, but that's not how it works in the real world. Just like the victims they have a choice whether or not they go into the backcountry; furthermore searches are called off when they are deemed too hazardous, just like the ones on Saturday.

First, my condolences to the families and friends of those involved. Our thoughts are with you.

Does anyone have any actual information about the experience level of the two groups? This thread is fairly a-typical for TAY as it's a lot of self-serving holier than though bs, with very little actual information. The NWAC forecast certainly would not have prevented someone from snowshoeing in the valley in commonwealth, however an experienced winter traveler likely would have been aware of the risk of the Granite summer trail funnels.

There's plenty of evidence to support experienced backcountry travelers making poor decisions.


Colorado had a trail pass that everyone bought that was basically $10 for the local SAR. That seems like a good idea, as does more people reporting to NWAC. I think NWAC does a fantastic job for a very wide region of multiple ranges with very little actual data to go off. They can only forecast on what they know...