NTN in backcountry

This is my NTN review primarily on backcountry use.  I know there are several TAYers on NTN longer than I've been, so please pitch in.

• Background
-I learned to telemark on skinny skis and low-cut leather boots, and never got into any heavy-metal gear, like T1, O2, Linken, etc. 


• Duckbill setup
-Atomic RT86 169cm + Bulldog + T3x (T3 bottom w/ T2x spoiler)


• NTN setup
-Voile Charger 171cm/Atomic RT86 169cm + Scarpa TX 09/10 + NTN 09/10
-Green springs at 3

I got a used pair of TX boots last Fall, then a used pair of NTN bindings.  Since the last Thanksgiving weekend at Baker, skied them three times on lifts and about a dozen times in backcountry. The conditions has been typical cascade snow: knee deep powder, rain-soaked frozen, heavy chowder, avy debris, etc.  No breakable crusts yet 

• Weight  :-[
My main concern was its weight.  Pound and half heavier than per Bulldog/T9; pound than Switchback. Surprisingly it hasn't bothered me much, at least for distance.  I've done three trips over 8 miles with 4~5k elevation. It'll probably more noticeable for more verticals.

• Edging 
A striking difference is its curving power.  Rather its ease of curving on hard packed.  This was especially notable with RT86; just effortless turn initiation and edge holding on very icy night slopes at Snoqualmie.

• Touring 
I've heard some conflicting feedback for skinning with its limited pivoting.  I found them great for touring on flats, doing kick turns, breaking trails in deep snow. Rockered tips help a lot too.

• Snow buildup 
I added closed-cell form pads under the plastic plates as suggested in TTips threads. Mike uses teflon sheets.  One occasion, new wet snow got in and froze up under the tour lever while in the touring mode, it then prevented to put them in the ski mode.  I had to chip away the ice by knife.  I now put small form pads under the tour levers.  I'll see if this would help.

• Durability  ???
No breakage other than scratches!  I know Mike broke one at the brake cut.  Randy, how did yours break?

• Heel lifter 
They are stable and easy to engage using a pole handle, a bit harder to put them down due to the springs.  I found them a little too high for my boot size (M28).

So far so good, I would say.  I feel a bit hesitant now to use my duckbill gear, but planning to try them this Wed night.  A rumor is that skiing NTN makes you better on the other system, whatever the reason is.  I'll see.

David's comment on the complexity of the NTN may be just relative.  Every system has been more complex than the simple 3pin system.  I actually still use a 3pin though with a cable.  I think the actual mechanism of NTN is relatively simple, and a lighter version will be out very soon.

BTW, I love my Charger skis 

Telemack and I just had a long conversation this evening comparing notes about our NTN systems.
This post is mostly to answer a question Telemack had...
Rather than spell out our whole conversation we discussed the powertubes.
One thought was that the powertubes on the lower end of the spectrum may make it easier to make kickturns in the BC. Here's the layout on those:
# White - Extra Soft
# Green - Soft
# Blue - Medium
# Red - Stiff

The theory is that the softer the spring the more freedom of the heels. Sounds like a good name for a book.
Mack has the green springs, I have the blue springs I was thinking of getting the red ones.I could not remember why though.

Here's the skinny on NtN. The higher the spring tension the less likely to get the ski to release in a fall. The white ones at their highest settings, with such low pressure will release easier and climb/kickturn easier than a Blue Powertube at it's lowest setting.
So theoretically it would be better for me to be on Red tubes and set them on the lowest settings than to be on the blue tubes at a higher setting.

Here's how it reads from NewTelemarkGuide The amount of lateral force required to release from the binding increases with preload of the Powertube, as does the "activity" level of the binding. Therefore, if a skier preloads their Powertubes to setting 4 for a high level of activity from the binding, he/she can expect the release to require much more force than if the Powertubes were preloaded at setting 1. It is for this reason that most NTN users recommend using a stiffer Powertube set to a lower setting, rather than a softer Powertube set to a high preload setting (unless the objective is to prevent release.)

I have been pitched forward a time or two on serious alpine runs. I think that I will crank the tubes down tighter for running around the lift area so I get more pressure on the shovel and edges, but crank the tubes way back on powder tours so they climb better and the tips don't drive as hard.

I know it does not answer all your questions Kenji, one dissertation at a time.
Whew....Confused yet??? Enough for now class will resume later....

Mine, green set at 3,  hasn't released yet.  Though I haven't been caught in an avy while on NTN, nor had a big spill yet. 

I've never cared much for releasability, but I can see it might prevent some injury since the binding/boot connection is much more solid.

I've read the discussion on the spring stiffness and preload stuff. It doesn't make much sense to me.  A preload is simply determined by the combination of spring stiffness and pre-compression. Since the release mechanism requires the same amount of spring travel regardless the stiffness, I would think it should be easier to release with softer spring unless it bottoms out. 

My feeling is this spring discussion is probably pointless given the much large force involved in a fall of 100/200 lb body or in a big avalanche.  Those springs are not meant to hold the boots from releasing, but to help flexing the boot sole.  Just my 2c.

So far so good, I would say.  I feel a bit hesitant now to use my duckbill gear, but planning to try them this Wed night.  A rumor is that skiing NTN makes you better on the other system, whatever the reason is.  I'll see.

I skied most of last winter on NTN, then transferred back to my Guides/T3/3pin CRB in the spring. It was a shock for much of the first day. Felt no power or control at first, and I did not like it. After that first day I adjusted and I spent most of the spring and summer on that setup. I'm really considering putting NTN on those skis this year, but I don't really want to tear up my TX pros hiking around on dirt. TX pros are a bit overkill anyway. I liked the TXs better, but I gave them to Brenda and I doubt she's giving them back. NTN boots are generally lighter than their duckbill counterparts, but I would still like to see an even lighter shorter cuffed NTN boot.  More on the order of a T3, for much of what I do in the spring and summer.

More coming?? Though what we need first is a lighter binding option; Dynafiddlers then might stop teasing us about those humongous bindings.

I just got my setup and am hoping to get them mounted in time to ski them a bit while the VertFest-ers are grinding out the course.  I've heard the same thing that Joe observed re: stiffer springs at a lower preload to improve tour performance.

The weight, after comparing every last scrap, is a hair (almost literally) less than my 7TM Power Tours.  The boots (TX), on the other hand, are a bit heavier than my T2s, but are comparable in cuff height to my T1s, so I'm guessing they'll be a more powerful all around boot.  We'll see.

**Edit on preview**

Kenji, that's a sexy little two buckle. I'm hopeful that may mean that there's going to be some lighter, more tour-oriented NTN offerings in the mix at some point, as well.