WMC Update 2012

Personally, I find it hard to imagine anything that lowers the value of skiing area more than snowmobile use. This is a subjective, emotional statement, but it is true for me. I find snowmobiles are obnoxious. They are antithetical to MY vision of a tranquil backcountry. I share skiing locales with sledders, b/c I realize they also have a right to recreate. I am sure they do not understand my feelings just as I can not understand theirs. I have never suspected a snowmobiler of having any desire to take anything away from me, yet I feel they are efficient at destroying exactly what I am looking for.

A primary frustration I find when discussing motorized access with snowmobile users is the personalization of the arguments. If I want to restrict snowmobile usage I am accused of being selfish despite the fact that I welcome all but the most obnoxious forms of travel.

They say, "why can't we share?"

I say, "why can't you be more considerate of those around you?"

In reality I believe I am willing to share, and they believe they are being considerate. But I do not believe they are being considerate, and they do not believe I am willing to share. Therein lies the incompatibility of uses.

Courtesy goes a long way and it would be nice to see more people getting back to being courtious.

I think education and remarking of the boundary for wilderness and non-motorized areas would help.

I share skiing locales with sledders, b/c I realize they also have a right to recreate.

Which is why I share with both sides of this discussion... as a snowboarder and snowmobiler... In both directions.

I am sure they do not understand my feelings just as I can not understand theirs.

Well, If people are not closed minded that are reading/commenting on this thread... this is the type of discourse that helps us to see and respect each others opinions.

I have never suspected a snowmobiler of having any desire to take anything away from me, yet I feel they are efficient at destroying exactly what I am looking for

Many snowmobilers DO feel that non-motorized proposals ARE trying to take things away... that IS "destroying" what They are looking for... The boundary that permits the skier/hiker/climber/snowshoer/snowboarder to recreate, out side of the realm of the snowmobile in the winter also "destroys" what they are looking for... but grants the skier access to the snowmobiles exclusion.

I like and support that there are non motorized Wilderness areas (even non mechanized which, ironically for the presentation here, may include ski mechanisms)

Anyone looking at the maps above can recognize the massive "off limits" areas that snowmobilers have to work around. And that those same areas offer Massive exclusive use to ONE group of users already....The same group that is asking to expand this exclusive right.

I am glad that I have the ability to snowboard in such massive areas and get fresh tracks... It takes work to get there, I'm willing to work for my turns.

Quote from: mountainhorse on Today at 12:21:28 PM
How or why is that area "Closed to you"?

Because it has tracks in it?

No, it's the same reason I don't go hiking on trails that allow dirt bikes.

Are you saying it is an "All or nothing" concept for you?

Pretty much. I can handle the same parking lot, but after that I don't want to see you guys.

In YOUR opinion, should snowmobiles be allowed to run off piste (or road) in the majority of the Non-wilderness area backcountry?  (Please take into account that the above presentation states that this will have little impact on the massive amounts of land that you state is open to use by snowmobiles.

Yes, clearcuts. Motors generally don't belong in the alpine.

It is interesting that You would exclude WMC from accessing the current Wilderness by snowmobile.

Here is where he "RUB" is... you believe that your rights extend beyond the rights of others.

It is the same kind of attitude that gave us the "White Only" drinking fountains that I saw as a kid.

This extremist example of attitudes that can be seen on both sides of this discussion is why cooperative arrangements haven't been  forged YET....I find this very SAD.

I AM pleased that your extreme, zealous, position does NOT represent the majority of people posting in this thread.

I also recognize in my fellow man/woman the ability to rise above this and take the "road less traveled" in trying to understand each other and respecting one another where that understanding does not exist.

Please (and I mean this sincerely)....So that I can better understand.

Md2020, tell me the description that comes to mind when you are talking to other backcountry non-motorized users when one of them asks you for your opinion on backcountry snowmobilers?

Anyone looking at the maps above can recognize the massive "off limits" areas that snowmobilers have to work around. And that those same areas offer Massive exclusive use to ONE group of users already....The same group that is asking to expand this exclusive right.

Here's another map to view that helps show the massive area of wilderness available in the central area of question.

WMC... you also have to entertain this idea if you are going to have a more complete picture of backcountry use:

In the past, Backcountry access to skiers was pretty limited untill the modern Teli, Rondi and Touring skis have come to the fore. Before that, there were very limited numbers of Skiers in the "Pristine backcountry" as well.

Ski touring Technology has advanced, prices have dropped on the gear and it is readily available at most sporting outlets (eg REI, Sportsbarn, Mountain Gear etc). Also instruction clinics for BC ski access and BC ski/snowboard clubs have been growing in numbers as well as numerous BC Touring books and maps for skiers. Sure, Franz Klahmer may have been ski touring in the late sixties... but he would have been pretty alone in the BC.

So that you might understand You have also proposed a closure to what is already a greatly shrinking snowmobile access-ability of snomobilers in the BC. There is a reason that snowmobilers feel that the Public Lands that they currently enjoy is under siege from groups that keep "inching thier way" into closing down more and more areas to our way of enjoying the backcountry beauty and expansiveness.

Also, snowmobile registration numbers have grown, but not as much as the population percentage... that number, in relation to pop size has diminished.

People have been ski touring in the Cascades, in the remotest areas, since the 1930s and '40s. While equipment has improved, the increased number of non-motorized users in the backcountry is more likely due to increased participation.

As has been stated here before, just today for example, there has been no major closure on the OWNF to motorized use since the early 1980s.

And finally, snow mobile registrations have remained relatively constant for over a decade and sales are declining with dealers going out of business.