TR Replies
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152821#msg152821 date=1485366590]
That slope was unequivocally stable on the day they skied it, right? Hop is saying you should ALWAYS come in from a different slope and ski it blind from the top, because that would be SAFEST. He's right that it is a better run top to bottom, and not skinning there makes it a better shared resource for others. But you guys are accusing the OP of doing something unsafe (or maybe worse,...
That slope was unequivocally stable on the day they skied it, right? Hop is saying you should ALWAYS come in from a different slope and ski it blind from the top, because that would be SAFEST. He's right that it is a better run top to bottom, and not skinning there makes it a better shared resource for others. But you guys are accusing the OP of doing something unsafe (or maybe worse, implying s/he is inexperienced and making dangerous choices). The facts don't...
We observed a large group participating in some type of avalanche/snow safety class posted up below golden gate around 5500' perhaps they were responsible for some of the excessive tracks and trenches?
First thing I thought when I saw that pic was that I'm glad I have safer options for skiing. I assumed what they were doing must have been their best option. It don't like loitering below objective hazards.
Hop I appreciate what you're doing. The struggle against human nature is upstream, so I hope you don't let it get to you too badly when you see people doing this time and time again. The smart folks will figure it out themselves or notice the grizzled old fellas...
Hop I appreciate what you're doing. The struggle against human nature is upstream, so I hope you don't let it get to you too badly when you see people doing this time and time again. The smart folks will figure it out themselves or notice the grizzled old fellas...
Haven't really kept up with the thread, but would just like to say I was up there this past Saturday, saw that skin track, and immediately thought NOPE. That track goes against everything they teach you in touring/avy safety 101. Good on @Hop for calling out an obvious red flag! We could all stand to learn something from these TRs. I know I have learned a great deal! 8)
Go track skiing...
... better skiing, fewer assholes, and more fun...
... better skiing, fewer assholes, and more fun...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152802#msg152802 date=1485311197]
I'm confused. How would these guys "hurt innocent bystanders" by lapping that bowl? What was their mistake again? Skinning where you wanted to make turns? I never realized there were so many rules up there. Can somebody please put up a sign?
The JH story isn't 100% directly applicable to the situation in the Bagley Lakes basin but I linked...
Above picture at maybe 3600' on ridge. Higher up would be even deeper but even at this level it was perfect. I quit posting pictures here as I don't know how to make them small enough without emailing them to myself and then downsizing to bad resolution. It's so much easier on Facebook....but this time...😄
author=hop link=topic=37687.msg152741#msg152741 date=1485226953]
Curious if you have anything constructive to add to the discussion or just something in your throat? ???
An interesting article from JH:
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/sports/sports_extras/outdoors_snow_survey/if-we-screw-up-and-shut-up-nothing-is-learned/article_9980334c-86dd-5285-81fa-c209bf278e03.html#.WGRcaKHyImk.facebook
"So we are faced with a conundrum...
On a pat-on-the back note..i'd like to congratulate you on
the nice fall line tight turns..seems like the lemingish traversing precious pow is iin vogue these days...
the nice fall line tight turns..seems like the lemingish traversing precious pow is iin vogue these days...
author=avajane link=topic=37695.msg152734#msg152734 date=1485221610]
Kings Ridge perfect. Easy skin track. Light, boottop snow. Only one set of tracks! Pictures on Facebook TAY
ludite here..ie dont do fb...could you post here?
Yes, as Bruce Tremper has written, they're playing Russian roulette with a 100 chamber revolver and 95% of the time they live to ski another day ....
author=natefred link=topic=37683.msg152768#msg152768 date=1485276891]
Calling a slope stable after doing nothing but skiing it and not triggering an avalanche is technically accurate but meaningless in the absence of other information, yet you hear people make the proclamation all the time....
Good to know - great looking snow.
As someone who has blown out a knee by landing in a firm traverse line where there shouldn't have been one (as witnessed by Hop) I'm a bit sensitive to skin tracks in places where I might be coming in hot. I'd like to think that it's common etiquette to put skin tracks in places that won't hurt other people and especially won't get the people in the skin track hurt.
Calling a slope stable after doing nothing but skiing it and not triggering an avalanche is technically accurate but meaningless in the absence of other information, yet you hear people make the proclamation all the time. I know I've been guilty of it occasionally when under the influence of powder euphoria, while not really knowing how close conditions were to being "not stable."
"I may have just dodged a bullet!" doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely, s...
"I may have just dodged a bullet!" doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely, s...
We went yesterday (23rd). What a mess! Not just tracked out Bundy's Blunder and weird downtracks on the front of Mazma Ridge and on 9-1-1 (perhaps reflecting variable snow), but uptracks! Ski uptracks and snowhoe uptracks in every direction; each party deigning to conserve snow by using an existing track. At one point, 4 parallel close-together tracks across the lower front of Mazama then 2 deep trenches across the upper front of Mazama over the best down ski areas and then meandering il...
Sounds like a fantastic day in the Tatoosh Range! Thank you very much for your report! Hope to see you in the mountains soon!
author=kamtron link=topic=37687.msg152760#msg152760 date=1485238874]
Great resource and constructive comments here
While I knew (or was aware of) many of the things he covers in his podcast, for some reason hearing Doug tell stories about the information really hammered it home and caused me to reflect on my own experiences and practices in a way that just reading it didn't. Thank you for Special Story Time Doug-san!
...
author=hop link=topic=37687.msg152737#msg152737 date=1485222523]
This season, snow safety expert Doug Krause started an excellent Avalanche podcast https://soundcloud.com/user-660921194 that covers all sorts of things from terrain and route choices, snowpack, communication, brain traps, etc.
Great resource and constructive comments here
author=brainbrian link=topic=37687.msg152753#msg152753 date=1485234032]
That skin track was bad, agreed, but I think the tracks on Herman were even worse. At least with this track this group who decided to do it were basically putting only themselves at risk. I'm not sure that's actually 9 people on the skin track, I didn't that many myself, but it did look like 1 group was continually lapping that area from what I saw. I don't think anyone...
This great conversation may reach a broader audience in Weak Layers...? Thanks everyone for moving the situational awareness component forward . X
Reviewing the photo a second time, you are correct. 9 on that track. all congregated towards the top. I guess it wasn't one group. Again, Herman was just as bad.
That skin track was bad, agreed, but I think the tracks on Herman were even worse. At least with this track this group who decided to do it were basically putting only themselves at risk. I'm not sure that's actually 9 people on the skin track, I didn't see that many myself, but it did look like 1 group was continually lapping that area. I don't believe anyone else was near that area on Saturday (*there were some tracks on lil alaska though)... still they could not be sure of...
My first ingnorance of reading the snowpack conditions and subsequent avalanche was on that slope in 2004. Believe "little AK" is the run and the slide started at the knob/cliff/convexity directly above the skin track; between the skin track and table proper. Ran well past where you guys topped out at.
As much as this seems like an annual rant from hop, he IS spot on. Due to the steepness and rolling nature of that terrain, a skier shredding from abo...
As much as this seems like an annual rant from hop, he IS spot on. Due to the steepness and rolling nature of that terrain, a skier shredding from abo...
Saw that precise phenomenon while lapping Herman a day or two into 2017 and thought that it was a strange way to farm the pow. Saw lots of other weirdness happening in the area too. The cat's out of the bag and Heather Meadows is a great starting point.
Bad form is bad form. That track my friends is bad form. Our dear friend hop is speaking from a place of love, and hoping to dissuade future mistakes that could lead to bad outcomes. The backcountry is no doubt crowded nowadays, and a great number of the new or new-ish are of below average skill on the up and the down. It's sad for many of us who have honed our skills over many moons, to see such atrocities in real life or the internet. Know that we don't despise you. We too onc...
author=dberdinka link=topic=37687.msg152739#msg152739 date=1485223899]
Oh yay!
The annual "SEATTLE SKINTRACKERS $&@#%!&@& URGGH GLAGG! dRRRR...."
Curious if you have anything constructive to add to the discussion or just something in your throat? ???
An interesting article from JH:
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/sports/sports_extras/outdoors_snow_survey/if-we-screw-up-and-sh...
Oh yay!
The annual "SEATTLE SKINTRACKERS $&@#%!&@& URGGH GLAGG! dRRRR...."
The annual "SEATTLE SKINTRACKERS $&@#%!&@& URGGH GLAGG! dRRRR...."
author=kamtron link=topic=37687.msg152730#msg152730 date=1485219749]
This argument has happened before.
Or is it annual?
I brought it up a couple years ago. http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=33188.0
While many agreed with me, apparently the public shaming angle wasn't the best way to bring attention to the situation so I'm going for a softer approach here. ...
This argument has happened before.
Or is it annual?
Or is it annual?
Please, pretty please, with sugar on top...
NEVER put that skin track there ever again, no matter how stable you think it is. The life you save may be your own.
If you're going to ski that area, the preferred method (by ski area management*, ski patrol*, and virtually everyone that taught me about that area) is to ski that from the top to the lake, then go around and ski it from the top again. You'll get a longer run and be out of the line of fire from other p...
NEVER put that skin track there ever again, no matter how stable you think it is. The life you save may be your own.
If you're going to ski that area, the preferred method (by ski area management*, ski patrol*, and virtually everyone that taught me about that area) is to ski that from the top to the lake, then go around and ski it from the top again. You'll get a longer run and be out of the line of fire from other p...
The tests were performed at 4300', uphill from the smithbrook road. Yes the slab showed signs of sliding, after 2nd test failure and propagation one more tap caused the slab to slide off clean.
Thanks for the feedback. My partner and I had no intentions of touring higher in the avy zone, even after the other group's claim of stable conditions and seeing them ski the slope, I was spooked.
Hopefully it settles out this week, but conditions are still quite variable...
Thanks for the feedback. My partner and I had no intentions of touring higher in the avy zone, even after the other group's claim of stable conditions and seeing them ski the slope, I was spooked.
Hopefully it settles out this week, but conditions are still quite variable...
That skin track is exactly where I found the best turns last Saturday and Sunday, what an unfortunate spot to put it.
Great skiing. About as good as it get in these parts!
One thing I found interesting... with the warming around 1/2pm, the Black Diamond Glop Stopper actually works to keep the snow from sticking to your skins. Anyone have other solutions?
Turns were really nice even in the sunny aspects. Overall snow seemed to have bonded well. We did set off a couple small wind slabs along north facing ridges (maybe 10 cm in depth and 3 meters in width that never turned into much). Scaled our objective of 'mt ann' back a bit because of the storm slabs and low visibility in the morning. It seemed like snow was consistently being deposited from the south onto the northern facing slopes.
Another great day in the mountains.
Another great day in the mountains.
Yeah it was warm when that sun came out. We should've got an earlier start. Turned around when we got hit with full-slope rollerballing traversing under the S side of Table. Went back yesterday and slayed lots of untracked on Ptarmigan ridge. Thanks for the skintrack, whoever you were!
Thanks for reaffirming our decision to not visit the back bowl . Most all of skiing was in tree sheltered west slopes.
Evidence of good mid-week cleansing cycle all over. We had variable snow in back bowl, ranging from scoured, non-breakable crust to 4" of buttery goods (wind transported) below north-facing slopes. Some isolated E-SE facing slopes displayed well consolidated soft slab formation, giving out on steeper terrain (<38*), poorly bonded to crust layer underneath. Signs of shooting cracks and propagation were evident on these faces, and larger slopes of similar aspect would hav...
Curious what the slope angle was where you did your ECT's & whether slab showed signs of sliding in addition to propagation. Either way I wouldn't have messed about either based on the info you've reported.
Sounds like something to keep an eye on, so thanks for the PSA.
Sounds like something to keep an eye on, so thanks for the PSA.
Mr. Bell and I would sure like to hammer out some stuff with you this year. ;) The poetry is impeccable, as usual. Thanks for the great report.
Indeed. It is possible that both groups made 'good decisions' based upon the information that they had gathered. Both the extent to which people gather/observe information and the way in which people interpret that information can vary tremendously.
Wumphfing is a clear indicator of concern. ECTP3 strongly suggests propensity for propagation, too. The corroboration with another party's observation sure builds a case for caution. NWAC observers' statements of sensit...
Wumphfing is a clear indicator of concern. ECTP3 strongly suggests propensity for propagation, too. The corroboration with another party's observation sure builds a case for caution. NWAC observers' statements of sensit...
Great day of freshies and discovering new terrain up there! Well worth the 4:45 wake up bell!
Coulda woulda shoulda. You made the right call.
Looks like a very happy holiday!
author=silaswild link=topic=37675.msg152688#msg152688 date=1485149522]
How is the new snow going to adhere safely to that ice?!!
Glue.
.the white school kind
...on yer favorite runs only
no-one will notice.
WE did venture off the Nordic trails. Nice 6" fluff on a firm base below 4000'. Higher we found a bulletproof 1/2" ice crust on rocks, tree limbs, and sadly the surface below the 6" fluff. Skinning was too slippery for us above 4300', so we enjoyed skiing down. How is the new snow going to adhere safely to that ice?!!
"I have been up there a few times since my last post. No sign of your helmet yet. "
Thanks river59 I appreciate you look'n out.
Thanks river59 I appreciate you look'n out.
author=Chamois link=topic=37650.msg152589#msg152589 date=1484942187]
Killing me Randy, killing me!
Maybe next year --- how's the fatties workin' for ya?
I took a pair of Dynafit Grand Tetons on this trip 108mm at the waist. I have fatter skis, but choose not to bring them as their 128mm waist and lightweight construction (Voile Drifters) makes them kind of lousy for any lift skiing on groomed snow.