TR Replies
Thanks for your report! I'll change the title to read January 22nd!
Hi toph,
Thanks for your report. I've still never been all the way to the top of the ridge, but had a lot of fun on Jim Hill Mtn. Glad you got out for some mid-week turns!
Thanks for your report. I've still never been all the way to the top of the ridge, but had a lot of fun on Jim Hill Mtn. Glad you got out for some mid-week turns!
I skied not too far from there on Sunday (just W of Ingalls) and there was impressive pow (12-16") above 4k'. It tends to stay cooler over that way, but the sun also tends to be more intense. It's too bad the N facing slopes off the 9712 road (Mt Lillian, Devils Gulch, etc.) aren't more easily accessible to non-motorized users, as in years with good snow (like this) it is really, really good. Thanks for posting Ava. This spot deserves more traffic.
author=markharf link=topic=37687.msg152887#msg152887 date=1485416995]
Those trees exist because they're on a little ridge of slightly higher ground which doesn't get swept by *most* of the avalanches which come down fairly often to both left and right. That's what makes it (slightly) safer, therefore tempting as a place to put in an uptrack. You can claim the trees as weak spots, but in my experience that little ridge is a relatively stable zone...
author=David_Lowry link=topic=37687.msg152901#msg152901 date=1485456273]
When I was younger, I had taken to heart Anselme Baud's words in Peter Cliff's 1987 book on ski mountaineering. I took a 20 year break from downhill bc skiing and when I started paying attention to the sport again, this sentiment had changed:
"I finish with a personal thought, but it is shared by many others: always climb the couloir before skiing down it. It ena...
On Monday afternoon it was hard as a rock at 2,000' in Valley Hi. At trailhead it was
Soft with a soft crust underneath. In the picture shot, 3/4's up the ridge it was perfect, light powder. The problem with low elevation skiiing is it can go bad quick. I wouldn't travel far without a better update than I can give from Whistler. If you go, plan on skiing on the north facing aspects.
I'll try to get an update on If I can get Ava to go check.
Soft with a soft crust underneath. In the picture shot, 3/4's up the ridge it was perfect, light powder. The problem with low elevation skiiing is it can go bad quick. I wouldn't travel far without a better update than I can give from Whistler. If you go, plan on skiing on the north facing aspects.
I'll try to get an update on If I can get Ava to go check.
Thank you everyone for the open discussion. It is super valuable to see different thought processes that people use when evaluating routefinding options. It's only my 3rd season after my AIARE class and the closest substitute for years of experience is probably seeing how a variety of experienced folks would approach a situation.
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152842#msg152842 date=1485377180]
This is actually just plain wrong. Vast majori...
How heavy was the snow? When we drove over Blewett Monday afternoon it looked thick and with a temp spike into the upper 30s that day (followed by a cool-down overnight) I'm concerned conditions have changed for the worse...
When I was younger, I had taken to heart Anselme Baud's words in Peter Cliff's 1987 book on ski mountaineering. I took a 20 year break from downhill bc skiing and when I started paying attention to the sport again, this sentiment had changed:
"I finish with a personal thought, but it is shared by many others: always climb the couloir before skiing down it. It enables you to have a look at the slope, at the condition of the snow, at the exact route. It lets you warm up b...
"I finish with a personal thought, but it is shared by many others: always climb the couloir before skiing down it. It enables you to have a look at the slope, at the condition of the snow, at the exact route. It lets you warm up b...
author=natefred link=topic=37687.msg152892#msg152892 date=1485450845]
Great post markharf.
I second that! Beautifully balanced, nuanced, and sage Mark. Thanks.
Great discussion all around, even the incendiary elements which provided the fuel for more thought and input. Thanks Hop et al and OP (Pierce).
author=markharf link=topic=37687.msg152887#msg152887 date=1485416995]
Those trees exist because they're on a little ridge of slightly higher ground which doesn't get swept by *most* of the avalanches which come down fairly often to both left and right. That's what makes it (slightly) safer, therefore tempting as a place to put in an uptrack. You can claim the trees as weak spots, but in my experience that little ridge is a relatively stable zone...
author=aaron_wright link=topic=37687.msg152874#msg152874 date=1485401299] What's interesting to me is why they chose to skin up there when there is an obvious route that IS safer, but also why in the only path with sparse trees, potential weak spots. Did they think that those trees offered a safer more anchored up track?
Those trees exist because they're on a little ridge of slightly higher ground which doesn't get swept by *...
Hey Mack,
Good report! You are correct that the skin track was put in on Friday, later in the day. Jan, Jeff and I made a couple great runs down through that zone on Saturday. Snow was outstanding! we exited from Maggies to the north, it was even better. ;) Let us know when you are headed this way, it would be good to share a skin track with you.
Joe, Stugie,
I remember a day with you guys a few years ago near here, we should do an encore one of these days.............
Good report! You are correct that the skin track was put in on Friday, later in the day. Jan, Jeff and I made a couple great runs down through that zone on Saturday. Snow was outstanding! we exited from Maggies to the north, it was even better. ;) Let us know when you are headed this way, it would be good to share a skin track with you.
Joe, Stugie,
I remember a day with you guys a few years ago near here, we should do an encore one of these days.............
author=Scotsman link=topic=37687.msg152869#msg152869 date=1485398551]
The thought process I try and abide by when setting a skin track is based upon the "Best Practices" protocol that we use at work to avoid killing people when engaged in complex construction work.
My personal Best Practices for skin track setting is as follows.
#1 Set the skin track in the safest place possible because I feel vulnerable with skins on, toes locked out...
The thought process I try and abide by when setting a skin track is based upon the "Best Practices" protocol that we use at work to avoid killing people when engaged in complex construction work.
My personal Best Practices for skin track setting is as follows.
#1 Set the skin track in the safest place possible because I feel vulnerable with skins on, toes locked out and anchors on my feet. Even if this means going the long way around to my desired point of entry.
#...
My personal Best Practices for skin track setting is as follows.
#1 Set the skin track in the safest place possible because I feel vulnerable with skins on, toes locked out and anchors on my feet. Even if this means going the long way around to my desired point of entry.
#...
Nice. It's often a small window but when it's on it's on!
I think I drove down Canyon 2 one day and scared the **** out of my wife.
I think I drove down Canyon 2 one day and scared the **** out of my wife.
author=Jim Oker link=topic=37687.msg152862#msg152862 date=1485391557]
We can describe our own thoughts. We can ask others to describe theirs. That's all good stuff. Totally relevant to the thread and useful to get this stuff as explicit as possible. I tried to share my own thought process on routes like this one in my own posts above. And would happily entertain any questions on where I may have left blanks open.
Making guesses at the thoughts ...
We can describe our own thoughts. We can ask others to describe theirs. That's all good stuff. Totally relevant to the thread and useful to get this stuff as explicit as possible. I tried to share my own thought process on routes like this one in my own posts above. And would happily entertain any questions on where I may have left blanks open.
Making guesses at the thoughts of others just strikes me as a provocation (and it's gone both ways above). Such guesses...
Making guesses at the thoughts of others just strikes me as a provocation (and it's gone both ways above). Such guesses...
author=Jim Oker link=topic=37687.msg152860#msg152860 date=1485388177]
I find the discussion of what other posters may or must be thinking to be much less interesting than the discussions of our own thought processes and route planning practices.
I find it pretty relevant, especially if there's a consensus towards a better route that is being ignored or dismissed as unnecessary by a vocal minority. I don't personal...
I find the discussion of what other posters may or must be thinking to be much less interesting than the discussions of our own thought processes and route planning practices.
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152857#msg152857 date=1485384879]
My point is that you seem to think you know something I don't, and I keep waiting for you to reveal it.
Safety is secondary? What's primary in your world? Hard to continue doing the things you like to do if you're not safe about it. Sooner or later the odds are going to catch up with you.
In this case, I know i...
author=avajane link=topic=37695.msg152803#msg152803 date=1485312821]
Trying
Very similar conditions up around Horse Lake Mt. at the end of No. 2 Canyon.
author=hop link=topic=37687.msg152849#msg152849 date=1485379189]
Yes, for all of the same reasons already listed. No matter what alternative facts you want to believe, it's impossible to safely assess that slope from below if you're 300m to the right, left or anywhere on that wall. Maybe if it's frozen solid and you're climbing with crampons and an ice axe but when it's pow, on a "considerable" day with signs of instabiliti...
author=bfree32 link=topic=37687.msg152854#msg152854 date=1485382524]
If someone began to drop in from the top of the line above you as you were skinning up on this considerable day with minor instabilities already noted, what would you do? Be totally stoked and cheer them on because you've green lighted the whole face as good to go?
That probably happened that day, without effect. If I had assessed the slope as stable,...
author=Scotsman link=topic=37687.msg152852#msg152852 date=1485381213]
It should be noted that the most recent avy death in Washington involved a friend of mine and occurred while she was skinning not skiing in the Crystal BC.
See the latest NWAC accident report.
The were of course other circumstances particular to that accident that were tragic ( solo).
One of my biggest fears is being on an avy slope with skins on ( toes locked, huge anchors...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152843#msg152843 date=1485377287]
This exemplifies the fallacy. If you think there is a reasonable chance that slope will slide, you shouldn't ski it. Plenty of other options around there.
If someone began to drop in from the top of the line above you as you were skinning up on this considerable day with minor instabilities already noted, what would you do? Be totally stoked and cheer them...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152830#msg152830 date=1485373452]
If it was dangerous, you shouldn't have skied it, right? if it was safe, you could skin it, right? Which is it? Personally, I prefer to assess a slope like that from below. Experience (not my home area, but I've skied it plenty of times over the past 15 years or so), has taught me that the instabilities are generally at the ridgeline up there (like most places).
It should be noted that the most recent avy death in Washington involved a friend of mine and occurred while she was skinning not skiing in the Crystal BC.
See the latest NWAC accident report.
The were of course other circumstances particular to that accident that were tragic ( solo).
One of my biggest fears is being on an avy slope with skins on ( toes locked, huge anchors on my feet) no possibility to try and ski to a safe zone etc.
Thank you HOP for a thoughtful in...
See the latest NWAC accident report.
The were of course other circumstances particular to that accident that were tragic ( solo).
One of my biggest fears is being on an avy slope with skins on ( toes locked, huge anchors on my feet) no possibility to try and ski to a safe zone etc.
Thank you HOP for a thoughtful in...
Worth adding that it's quite possible to ski that slope one-at-a-time with radio or cell phone contact between the first and last skiers in a group to give the "slope is clear!" signal from below for each skier after the first crust-and-slab detector. It doesn't add lot of time to a trip down. Much harder to limit group exposure on that uptrack...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152844#msg152844 date=1485377435]
Question for the Bagley Police: Would you have raised this fuss if the OP had placed that track 300 yards to the lookers' right?
Guarantee I have smashed more untracked pow than you bud.
Yes, for all of the same reasons already listed. No matter what alternative facts you want to believe, it's impossible to safely assess that slope from below if...
Ok that does it. I am putting on my snowshoes and coming for your skin track. These pictures will be helpful.
When the cost is not great, I'd MUCH rather assess a slope from clues gathered from adjacent slopes on a climb somewhere not exposed to one long slope, as well as from a bit of checking of snow conditions while skiing down from above. Add to that the high probability of folks coming in from far above at such a busy area and I know what my choice would be on any day that was worth skiing, even a moderate hazard powder snow day. It's about margin of error - even if I'...
Question for the Bagley Police: Would you have raised this fuss if the OP had placed that track 300 yards to the lookers' right?
Guarantee I have smashed more untracked pow than you bud.
author=hop link=topic=37687.msg152833#msg152833 date=1485374732]
Backcountry Asshattery?
Guarantee I have smashed more untracked pow than you bud.
author=bfree32 link=topic=37687.msg152834#msg152834 date=1485374788]
Really? You can't see the difference between spending 2 minutes on an avalanche prone slope (during which you know what is going on around you) vs. spending hours on a slope (where others are likely to drop in on top of you, in the upper terrain that you have agreed is more likely to slide)?
This exemplifies the fallacy. If you think there is a reasonable ch...
author=jacoblmandell link=topic=37687.msg152835#msg152835 date=1485374942]
As I described in my initial post it was a small slope that would not propagate and potentially encompass a large amount of terrain, unlike the place where the skin track was. It was a risk I felt comfortable taking and understood, therefore I ski cut the slope and went to safe zone.
On the descent you spend less time in the line of fire and can minimize risk more effectivel...
author=chuck link=topic=37687.msg152837#msg152837 date=1485376289]
If you look at the original picture, in the left third you can see a crown and slide path. It wasn't huge but it happened on Saturday, about the same time this up track was put in. If someone dropped in from the top a similar slide would have likely run right thru this up-track. It would have been unpleasant.
We saw the circus going on and were happy to be heading elsewhere. Be...
author=z-bo link=topic=37687.msg152831#msg152831 date=1485374505]
Good2go needs to move his chronic dissension to tgr where he can fully expound his patriotism for alternative facts and anti-agreement with anything resembling common sense. The padded room is waiting for you buddy!
Ha! I probably hate Trump more than you! I'm not disagreeing for sport. I honestly think you guys are kidding yourselves about yo...
If you look at the original picture, in the left third you can see a crown and slide path. It wasn't huge but it happened on Saturday, about the same time this up track was put in. If someone dropped in from the top a similar slide would have likely run right thru this up-track. It would have been unpleasant.
We saw the circus going on and were happy to be heading elsewhere. Before we lost sight of this group of 9 densely packed ascenders, I noticed 2 people poking around direct...
We saw the circus going on and were happy to be heading elsewhere. Before we lost sight of this group of 9 densely packed ascenders, I noticed 2 people poking around direct...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152830#msg152830 date=1485373452]
If it was dangerous, you shouldn't have skied it, right? if it was safe, you could skin it, right? Which is it? Personally, I prefer to assess a slope like that from below. Experience (not my home area, but I've skied it plenty of times over the past 15 years or so), has taught me that the instabilities are generally at the ridgeline up there (like most places).
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152830#msg152830 date=1485373452]
If it was dangerous, you shouldn't have skied it, right? if it was safe, you could skin it, right? Which is it? Personally, I prefer to assess a slope like that from below. Experience (not my home area, but I've skied it plenty of times over the past 15 years or so), has taught me that the instabilities are generally at the ridgeline up there (like most places).
author=z-bo link=topic=37687.msg152831#msg152831 date=1485374505]
Good2go needs to move his chronic dissension to tgr where he can fully expound his patriotism for alternative facts and anti-agreement with anything resembling common sense. The padded room is waiting for you buddy!
Backcountry Asshattery?
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152830#msg152830 date=1485373452]
If it was dangerous, you shouldn't have skied it, right? if it was safe, you could skin it, right? Which is it? Personally, I prefer to assess a slope like that from below. Experience (not my home area, but I've skied it plenty of times over the past 15 years or so), has taught me that the instabilities are generally at the ridgeline up there (like most places).
Good2go needs to move his chronic dissension to tgr where he can fully expound his patriotism for alternative facts and anti-agreement with anything resembling common sense. The padded room is waiting for you buddy!
If it was dangerous, you shouldn't have skied it, right? if it was safe, you could skin it, right? Which is it? Personally, I prefer to assess a slope like that from below. Experience (not my home area, but I've skied it plenty of times over the past 15 years or so), has taught me that the instabilities are generally at the ridgeline up there (like most places).
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152825#msg152825 date=1485368611]
It was stable Hop. The pictures and report tell the story. You can keep throwing out red herrings about "10cm wind slabs" and impeccable safety knowledge of your mentors, but I find your arguments unconvincing. What I keep hearing is you want everybody to "do it like you". Own it.
I skied in the bagley zone on sunday 1/22 and...
author=hop link=topic=37687.msg152826#msg152826 date=1485368863]
a poor decision isn't justified because nothing bad happened.
Key thought.
I expect things to get more circus-like up there before getting any better, but it's still important to shovel at least some sand against the tide. When on the lifts this year, I keep running into folks who have BC gear that they haven't use...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152825#msg152825 date=1485368611]
It was stable Hop. The pictures and report tell the story. You can keep throwing out red herrings about "10cm wind slabs" and impeccable safety knowledge of your mentors, but I find your arguments unconvincing. What I keep hearing is you want everybody to "do it like you". Own it.
You are correct. I would rather see people be smart and saf...
It was stable Hop. The pictures and report tell the story. You can keep throwing out red herrings about "10cm wind slabs" and impeccable safety knowledge of your mentors, but I find your arguments unconvincing. What I keep hearing is you want everybody to "do it like you". Own it.
I wonder how safe skinning was preached before the internet? You'd have to be lucky enough to go b/c skiing with someone like Ira Spring, where he could set up his 4x5 camera, shoot a slides, get them developed and then submit them for publication where someone knowledgeable about skinning practices could view the photos and then pen and publish a critique.
Sounds cumbersome.
Sounds cumbersome.