TR Replies
I'm too cheap to buy the Volkenmeister book, but I'm guessing he's trying to have you ski back south into the the Alpental valley; A similar route to the summer trail? I'm sure someone here knows how to do it.
My limited experience on the north sides of East-West ridges in the Snotqualime area is, that they are steep and complex on the north sides and often puckeringly difficult to get through unless you know the way.
I tend to scout stuff in summer if I want to nai...
My limited experience on the north sides of East-West ridges in the Snotqualime area is, that they are steep and complex on the north sides and often puckeringly difficult to get through unless you know the way.
I tend to scout stuff in summer if I want to nai...
The immediate terrain around Table is small when compared to Connaught at Rogers Pass. As anyone who has visited recently can tell you shits wild and it is only a matter of time until Strathcona repeats itself however this time the avalanche will be human triggered. Homies dropping cornices into STS have a hard time missing when the congo line going up Connaught is 150 strong, and you have the uninitiated trying to boot up or lap the fan. Actions in crowded areas have consequences. Is it the hom...
author=Gregg_C link=topic=37687.msg152941#msg152941 date=1485490095]
After skiing in the Baker backcountry for four decades I notice an interesting trend. Every 5-7 years a new group of skiers come along and rename all the runs and act as if they were the first ones to access Table Mountain. All it would take is a trip into the Heather Meadows lodge to view the photos from the 1930's to show skiers ripping up the north side of Table to change their opin...
It was a blast. The snow was kinda weird. Sugary and soft. It was really cold up there. That kept it soft. We could have had some epic turns down from the saddle if we didn't bother to traverse high.
The other higher risk choice the OP made I observed in their video was the choice to basically ski together on the decent. If the slope had failed -- they would have both been caught up.
Seems like both the up track choice or the choice to ski together might reflect ignorance or a high degree of confidence in the stability of the snowpack.
Since the OP hasn't responded to this thread -- perhaps they haven't checked back or they know that there isn't muc...
Seems like both the up track choice or the choice to ski together might reflect ignorance or a high degree of confidence in the stability of the snowpack.
Since the OP hasn't responded to this thread -- perhaps they haven't checked back or they know that there isn't muc...
We should start a pool prior to the season giving the over/under on the days before the following topics are discussed in multiple page threads:
1) Snowshoeing in the skin track
2) High risk tolerance vs. ignorance
3) The proper way to access/ski the most popular regions
4) Don't out my "secret" stash
These topics will continue to be discussed year after year. This will never change. I am certain. Spending some time contemplating as to why t...
1) Snowshoeing in the skin track
2) High risk tolerance vs. ignorance
3) The proper way to access/ski the most popular regions
4) Don't out my "secret" stash
These topics will continue to be discussed year after year. This will never change. I am certain. Spending some time contemplating as to why t...
:D
author=Gregg_C link=topic=37687.msg152941#msg152941 date=1485490095]
After skiing in the Baker backcountry for four decades I notice an interesting trend. Every 5-7 years a new group of skiers come along and rename all the runs and act as if they were the first ones to access Table Mountain. All it would take is a trip into the Heather Meadows lodge to view the photos from the 1930's to show skiers ripping up the north side of Table to change their op...
After skiing in the Baker backcountry for four decades I notice an interesting trend. Every 5-7 years a new group of skiers come along and rename all the runs and act as if they were the first ones to access Table Mountain. All it would take is a trip into the Heather Meadows lodge to view the photos from the 1930's to show skiers ripping up the north side of Table to change their opinion. I was out on the day in question and saw the up track and joked about the coming TAY...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152935#msg152935 date=1485484461]
Saying things like "people getting away with stupid choices" is hardly being respectful IMO. And, this is not a platform for broad avy education. It's somebody's TR. The OP wanted to share their joyful (and by all accounts totally safe) experience, and instead they got a stern talking to by Officer Hop. I doubt we'll be seeing any more TRs from Pierce on h...
author=T. Eastman link=topic=37687.msg152931#msg152931 date=1485483216]
Hop,
Most of the big Alpine routes were skied in summer or early-fall conditions where there was no issue with winter snowpack. The primary reason to climb the routes was assess problems with ice and rock.
Exactly. Which is another reason why the "climb before you ski" mentality doesn't really apply to this area in m...
author=natefred link=topic=37687.msg152929#msg152929 date=1485480934]
Another point I think Good2Go is missing (and that is probably contributing to his irritation) is that it's not about judging this group's decision making or the outcome on a particular day, it's about what is likely to happen if people continue the habit. If one, two, or a bunch of people do get buried on a skin track there some day, EVERYONE (well, I can't really speak...
author=hop link=topic=37687.msg152923#msg152923 date=1485479062]
You repeatedly keep missing my point. It's never been about getting more people to enjoy that slope as you seem to think. It's about minimizing your exposure while in/around avy terrain. I can't say that any clearer; I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand.
Also, successful outcomes don't justify bad decisions. In your case they seem to re...
Hop,
Most of the big Alpine routes were skied in summer or early-fall conditions where there was no issue with winter snowpack. The primary reason to climb the routes was assess problems with ice and rock.
Most of the big Alpine routes were skied in summer or early-fall conditions where there was no issue with winter snowpack. The primary reason to climb the routes was assess problems with ice and rock.
author=David_Lowry link=topic=37687.msg152928#msg152928 date=1485480626]
Thanks for the correction. "always climb the couloir" does not mean always, it depends on whether it is extreme. Didn't mean to imply the terrain is similar. It does seem odd to me that you can assess slope A by studying slope B. I am only trying to learn here, and the quote I posted has had me confused about this topic for a long time.
When I...
Another point I think Good2Go is missing (and that is probably contributing to his irritation) is that it's not about judging this group's decision making or the outcome on a particular day, it's about what is likely to happen if people continue the habit. If one, two, or a bunch of people do get buried on a skin track there some day, EVERYONE (well, I can't really speak for everyone I guess) is going to say how stupid, tragic, and easily avoidable it was.
For one...
For one...
Thanks for the correction. "always climb the couloir" does not mean always, it depends on whether it is extreme. Didn't mean to imply the terrain is similar. It does seem odd to me that you can assess slope A by studying slope B. I am only trying to learn here, and the quote I posted has had me confused about this topic for a long time.
Some interesting wind-affected snow on your traverse there, and cool ice crystals in the air with your tailwind
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152917#msg152917 date=1485472893]
I first bought a snomo 11 years ago and had a lot of fun learning to ride it. I went to most of the snomo version of ski areas in WA to learn, and found it striking that the snomo community has a much lower perception of risk in the WA snowpack. They cover way more ground than skiers typically do, often hitting every aspect and elevation within a large area. I came to realize that the skiing...
Love the video man. Thanks very much for the Hood report. I'm hoping to head that way soon.
Thanks for your report! I'll change the title to read January 22nd!
Hi toph,
Thanks for your report. I've still never been all the way to the top of the ridge, but had a lot of fun on Jim Hill Mtn. Glad you got out for some mid-week turns!
Thanks for your report. I've still never been all the way to the top of the ridge, but had a lot of fun on Jim Hill Mtn. Glad you got out for some mid-week turns!
I skied not too far from there on Sunday (just W of Ingalls) and there was impressive pow (12-16") above 4k'. It tends to stay cooler over that way, but the sun also tends to be more intense. It's too bad the N facing slopes off the 9712 road (Mt Lillian, Devils Gulch, etc.) aren't more easily accessible to non-motorized users, as in years with good snow (like this) it is really, really good. Thanks for posting Ava. This spot deserves more traffic.
author=markharf link=topic=37687.msg152887#msg152887 date=1485416995]
Those trees exist because they're on a little ridge of slightly higher ground which doesn't get swept by *most* of the avalanches which come down fairly often to both left and right. That's what makes it (slightly) safer, therefore tempting as a place to put in an uptrack. You can claim the trees as weak spots, but in my experience that little ridge is a relatively stable zone...
author=David_Lowry link=topic=37687.msg152901#msg152901 date=1485456273]
When I was younger, I had taken to heart Anselme Baud's words in Peter Cliff's 1987 book on ski mountaineering. I took a 20 year break from downhill bc skiing and when I started paying attention to the sport again, this sentiment had changed:
"I finish with a personal thought, but it is shared by many others: always climb the couloir before skiing down it. It ena...
On Monday afternoon it was hard as a rock at 2,000' in Valley Hi. At trailhead it was
Soft with a soft crust underneath. In the picture shot, 3/4's up the ridge it was perfect, light powder. The problem with low elevation skiiing is it can go bad quick. I wouldn't travel far without a better update than I can give from Whistler. If you go, plan on skiing on the north facing aspects.
I'll try to get an update on If I can get Ava to go check.
Soft with a soft crust underneath. In the picture shot, 3/4's up the ridge it was perfect, light powder. The problem with low elevation skiiing is it can go bad quick. I wouldn't travel far without a better update than I can give from Whistler. If you go, plan on skiing on the north facing aspects.
I'll try to get an update on If I can get Ava to go check.
Thank you everyone for the open discussion. It is super valuable to see different thought processes that people use when evaluating routefinding options. It's only my 3rd season after my AIARE class and the closest substitute for years of experience is probably seeing how a variety of experienced folks would approach a situation.
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152842#msg152842 date=1485377180]
This is actually just plain wrong. Vast majori...
How heavy was the snow? When we drove over Blewett Monday afternoon it looked thick and with a temp spike into the upper 30s that day (followed by a cool-down overnight) I'm concerned conditions have changed for the worse...
When I was younger, I had taken to heart Anselme Baud's words in Peter Cliff's 1987 book on ski mountaineering. I took a 20 year break from downhill bc skiing and when I started paying attention to the sport again, this sentiment had changed:
"I finish with a personal thought, but it is shared by many others: always climb the couloir before skiing down it. It enables you to have a look at the slope, at the condition of the snow, at the exact route. It lets you warm up b...
"I finish with a personal thought, but it is shared by many others: always climb the couloir before skiing down it. It enables you to have a look at the slope, at the condition of the snow, at the exact route. It lets you warm up b...
author=natefred link=topic=37687.msg152892#msg152892 date=1485450845]
Great post markharf.
I second that! Beautifully balanced, nuanced, and sage Mark. Thanks.
Great discussion all around, even the incendiary elements which provided the fuel for more thought and input. Thanks Hop et al and OP (Pierce).
author=markharf link=topic=37687.msg152887#msg152887 date=1485416995]
Those trees exist because they're on a little ridge of slightly higher ground which doesn't get swept by *most* of the avalanches which come down fairly often to both left and right. That's what makes it (slightly) safer, therefore tempting as a place to put in an uptrack. You can claim the trees as weak spots, but in my experience that little ridge is a relatively stable zone...
author=aaron_wright link=topic=37687.msg152874#msg152874 date=1485401299] What's interesting to me is why they chose to skin up there when there is an obvious route that IS safer, but also why in the only path with sparse trees, potential weak spots. Did they think that those trees offered a safer more anchored up track?
Those trees exist because they're on a little ridge of slightly higher ground which doesn't get swept by *...
Hey Mack,
Good report! You are correct that the skin track was put in on Friday, later in the day. Jan, Jeff and I made a couple great runs down through that zone on Saturday. Snow was outstanding! we exited from Maggies to the north, it was even better. ;) Let us know when you are headed this way, it would be good to share a skin track with you.
Joe, Stugie,
I remember a day with you guys a few years ago near here, we should do an encore one of these days.............
Good report! You are correct that the skin track was put in on Friday, later in the day. Jan, Jeff and I made a couple great runs down through that zone on Saturday. Snow was outstanding! we exited from Maggies to the north, it was even better. ;) Let us know when you are headed this way, it would be good to share a skin track with you.
Joe, Stugie,
I remember a day with you guys a few years ago near here, we should do an encore one of these days.............
author=Scotsman link=topic=37687.msg152869#msg152869 date=1485398551]
The thought process I try and abide by when setting a skin track is based upon the "Best Practices" protocol that we use at work to avoid killing people when engaged in complex construction work.
My personal Best Practices for skin track setting is as follows.
#1 Set the skin track in the safest place possible because I feel vulnerable with skins on, toes locked out...
The thought process I try and abide by when setting a skin track is based upon the "Best Practices" protocol that we use at work to avoid killing people when engaged in complex construction work.
My personal Best Practices for skin track setting is as follows.
#1 Set the skin track in the safest place possible because I feel vulnerable with skins on, toes locked out and anchors on my feet. Even if this means going the long way around to my desired point of entry.
#...
My personal Best Practices for skin track setting is as follows.
#1 Set the skin track in the safest place possible because I feel vulnerable with skins on, toes locked out and anchors on my feet. Even if this means going the long way around to my desired point of entry.
#...
Nice. It's often a small window but when it's on it's on!
I think I drove down Canyon 2 one day and scared the **** out of my wife.
I think I drove down Canyon 2 one day and scared the **** out of my wife.
author=Jim Oker link=topic=37687.msg152862#msg152862 date=1485391557]
We can describe our own thoughts. We can ask others to describe theirs. That's all good stuff. Totally relevant to the thread and useful to get this stuff as explicit as possible. I tried to share my own thought process on routes like this one in my own posts above. And would happily entertain any questions on where I may have left blanks open.
Making guesses at the thoughts ...
We can describe our own thoughts. We can ask others to describe theirs. That's all good stuff. Totally relevant to the thread and useful to get this stuff as explicit as possible. I tried to share my own thought process on routes like this one in my own posts above. And would happily entertain any questions on where I may have left blanks open.
Making guesses at the thoughts of others just strikes me as a provocation (and it's gone both ways above). Such guesses...
Making guesses at the thoughts of others just strikes me as a provocation (and it's gone both ways above). Such guesses...
author=Jim Oker link=topic=37687.msg152860#msg152860 date=1485388177]
I find the discussion of what other posters may or must be thinking to be much less interesting than the discussions of our own thought processes and route planning practices.
I find it pretty relevant, especially if there's a consensus towards a better route that is being ignored or dismissed as unnecessary by a vocal minority. I don't personal...
I find the discussion of what other posters may or must be thinking to be much less interesting than the discussions of our own thought processes and route planning practices.
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152857#msg152857 date=1485384879]
My point is that you seem to think you know something I don't, and I keep waiting for you to reveal it.
Safety is secondary? What's primary in your world? Hard to continue doing the things you like to do if you're not safe about it. Sooner or later the odds are going to catch up with you.
In this case, I know i...
author=avajane link=topic=37695.msg152803#msg152803 date=1485312821]
Trying
Very similar conditions up around Horse Lake Mt. at the end of No. 2 Canyon.
author=hop link=topic=37687.msg152849#msg152849 date=1485379189]
Yes, for all of the same reasons already listed. No matter what alternative facts you want to believe, it's impossible to safely assess that slope from below if you're 300m to the right, left or anywhere on that wall. Maybe if it's frozen solid and you're climbing with crampons and an ice axe but when it's pow, on a "considerable" day with signs of instabiliti...
author=bfree32 link=topic=37687.msg152854#msg152854 date=1485382524]
If someone began to drop in from the top of the line above you as you were skinning up on this considerable day with minor instabilities already noted, what would you do? Be totally stoked and cheer them on because you've green lighted the whole face as good to go?
That probably happened that day, without effect. If I had assessed the slope as stable,...
author=Scotsman link=topic=37687.msg152852#msg152852 date=1485381213]
It should be noted that the most recent avy death in Washington involved a friend of mine and occurred while she was skinning not skiing in the Crystal BC.
See the latest NWAC accident report.
The were of course other circumstances particular to that accident that were tragic ( solo).
One of my biggest fears is being on an avy slope with skins on ( toes locked, huge anchors...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152843#msg152843 date=1485377287]
This exemplifies the fallacy. If you think there is a reasonable chance that slope will slide, you shouldn't ski it. Plenty of other options around there.
If someone began to drop in from the top of the line above you as you were skinning up on this considerable day with minor instabilities already noted, what would you do? Be totally stoked and cheer them...
author=Good2Go link=topic=37687.msg152830#msg152830 date=1485373452]
If it was dangerous, you shouldn't have skied it, right? if it was safe, you could skin it, right? Which is it? Personally, I prefer to assess a slope like that from below. Experience (not my home area, but I've skied it plenty of times over the past 15 years or so), has taught me that the instabilities are generally at the ridgeline up there (like most places).
It should be noted that the most recent avy death in Washington involved a friend of mine and occurred while she was skinning not skiing in the Crystal BC.
See the latest NWAC accident report.
The were of course other circumstances particular to that accident that were tragic ( solo).
One of my biggest fears is being on an avy slope with skins on ( toes locked, huge anchors on my feet) no possibility to try and ski to a safe zone etc.
Thank you HOP for a thoughtful in...
See the latest NWAC accident report.
The were of course other circumstances particular to that accident that were tragic ( solo).
One of my biggest fears is being on an avy slope with skins on ( toes locked, huge anchors on my feet) no possibility to try and ski to a safe zone etc.
Thank you HOP for a thoughtful in...
Worth adding that it's quite possible to ski that slope one-at-a-time with radio or cell phone contact between the first and last skiers in a group to give the "slope is clear!" signal from below for each skier after the first crust-and-slab detector. It doesn't add lot of time to a trip down. Much harder to limit group exposure on that uptrack...