Snowolf... listen to Shaman. Your voice is important and as John Wayne once told Barbara Walters..... "don't let the bastards get you down"...( true believe it or not... look it up.) Grow some thicker skin and suck it up. We need new members in the club.... even soloists. ;)
I learnt a lot from the discussion and Skykilo( albeit with a "cough") agreeing with me on a point means Christmas miracles are possible. ;D

12/26/10 3:35pm

fheimer

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

I was touring on that middle morain last year on what seemed like consolidated snow but ended up setting off a pretty good sized slab avalanche. The crown was only 2 feet tall but it was almost 100 feet across. Luckily it was very slow moving and even though I got carried I never got buried. Sounds like people are being safe and digging pits and such, just thought I'd mention it because it was quite a wake-up call for me.

One of my favorite tours is up a side a...

12/26/10 3:18pm

shaman

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

author=Snowolf link=topic=18494.msg78997#msg78997 date=1293424679]
So, in the interest of not upsetting the apple cart here, I will peace out now and leave you folks to your own club. I can post trip reports on splitboard. Com without creating a firestorm.

I am sorry it has come to this Snowolf. Since moving south from Bellingham I have found myself touring solo quite often. I would prefer not to, but most of the peop...

12/26/10 2:13pm

Robie

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

I have also learned that a lot of skiers think they are much better skiers than they actually are.

I wish you would keep my name out of this .

12/26/10 1:42pm

Joedabaker

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

author=savegondor link=topic=18494.msg78970#msg78970 date=1293412248]
had you done the ski cut you might also be dead.

I realize that I am not going to change your belief system about pits and ski cuts. But digging in to a certain belief hardly cast the image of being open to as much information as possible. Maybe, quite possibly, if there are so many experienced BC travelers that hold the contention that ski cuts are a good idea,...

12/26/10 1:28pm

T. Eastman

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

A good discussion was attempted to be nipped in the bud by the moderator. Perhaps T-A-Y needs a re-evaluation of its policies on frank discussions. The moderation is personal opinion inserted with the earnestness of a school marm. PNW social correctness rears its head... a good way to encourage group think, especially in regards to avi considerations.

12/26/10 1:03pm

Snowolf

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

Deleted

12/26/10 12:37pm

Andrew Carey

Dec 25, 2010, Paradise

Here's one of Regine from last week (21 Dec, back bowl, no one else around except GaryV and Ed doing a tour down Mazama Ridge):

12/26/10 12:11pm

savegondor

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

had you done the ski cut you might also be dead.

author=Joedabaker link=topic=18494.msg78887#msg78887 date=1293324248]
BTW Happy Holidays to all!
Not all science is exact and perfect. I get what you are saying about utilizing as much info as possible. I can't tell you the amount of geophysical projects I worked that were cut and dry science according to the engineers and ended up being a cluster of additional costs due to broken science.

12/26/10 9:10am

skykilo

December 24, 2010, Snoqualmie Pass

too bad we missed you. i was up there that afternoon and can affirm that the snow was quite nice. snowed about 4" on dave's car at the alpy maintenance lot while we were skiing.

12/26/10 8:45am

checker

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

Snowolf and Passenger – this lurker begs you to stop the sniping!

We finally have an interesting and fruitful dialogue going in this thread that transcends an inconsequential TR about Hogback or a sideways reference to Shakespeare. Passenger’s first post was inflammatory, no doubt: but look at the result. People are re-assessing how they approach safety in the BC and that’s what’s important, so good on ya for that. Revising what you originally wrote over and over in an at...

12/26/10 7:32am

Koda

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

author=Snowolf link=topic=18494.msg78949#msg78949 date=1293399208]
too many self appointed "experts" acting as the thought police trying to mind everyone else`s business down here. When you are not out yelling at the kids to get off of your lawn, I bet you are the guy in the left lane of the freeway trying to control everyone else`s speed too...... ::)

High five Snowolf.

maybe the adm...

12/26/10 6:01am

Snowolf

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

Deleted

12/26/10 5:33am

Scotsman

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

Well Savegondor I can assure you I'm not lazy and I don't want to die in an avalanche and regularly ski with my son and friends and don't want them to die either so I take avy safety very seriously but have never being inclined to dogma either.

When I first started BC skking and for several years thereafter, I read my avy report, even took a copy with me and dug pits like a demented badger.
Now I ski a lot so I usually really watch the weather, wind directions and...

12/26/10 4:55am

lrudholm

Mt. Hood - Newton Creek - 12-19-2010

That looks like a lot of fun.

12/26/10 4:52am

Marcus

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

author=Passenger link=topic=18494.msg78940#msg78940 date=1293391629]
Marcus, I believe you misunderstand my motivation for posting here. I have no interest in debating Snowolf. The value of this thread is in facilitating a discussion on backcountry safety. There must be some interest if the number of views is any indication. I have been lurking on this site for too many years to remember and will continue to do so, however if my style of making a point is...

12/26/10 4:13am

Passenger

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

Marcus, I believe you misunderstand my motivation for posting here. I have no interest in debating Snowolf. The value of this thread is in facilitating a discussion on backcountry safety. There must be some interest if the number of views is any indication. I have been lurking on this site for too many years to remember and will continue to do so, however if my style of making a point is detrimental to your fine work then I promise that you have heard the last from me. I would like to end w...

12/26/10 3:27am

Zap

Mt. Hood - Newton Creek - 12-19-2010

Very nice TR. The second photo is beautiful.

Welcome to TAY.

12/26/10 1:23am

Marcus

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

That's the kind of thing that's not going to be very helpful here, Passenger.

If y'all can't come to some agreement and neither of you will soften your position, please let it go. Snowolf's clarified his feelings and actions that day at length -- you don't have to believe him, of course, though I'm not sure why you're insisting on that.

12/26/10 1:22am

Passenger

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

Snowolf, regarding your latest post.....The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

12/25/10 11:39pm

Snowolf

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

Deleted

12/25/10 7:26pm

Snowolf

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

Deleted

12/25/10 7:09pm

CookieMonster

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

SaveGondor, you're entitled to your opinion, but your post neatly outlines a lack of understanding of some very basic facts about avalanches and backcountry avalanche forecasting.

Unfortunately, I don't have time right now to disassemble the remaining fallacies, bad information, and red herrings in your post.

***

author=savegondor link=topic=18494.msg78884#msg78884 date=1293318785](not perfect, and not sufficient, a...

12/25/10 5:05pm

Edgesport

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

Thanks for the Hood post. I agree with eweiseth that it is nice to see people talking about Hood. I know I would like to see more so I posted a recent trip. Mt. Hood - Newton Creek - 12-19-2010 - Headed up tomorrow, I'll try and let TAY'ers know what we find.

12/25/10 3:08pm

khyak

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

The Kinks - Destroyer

destroyer

12/25/10 1:58pm

Stugie

Christmas Eve, 2010, Minneapolis

Yeah! That sure brings me back home vicariously. Thank you.

12/25/10 11:01am

Jim Oker

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

author=Joedabaker link=topic=18494.msg78887#msg78887 date=1293324248]
FWIW I am more concerned with my exposure than if I am making logical estimates of the conditions.

I agree. I've also seen that in the cases where I've been with a guide, they've put a lot of focus on planning around managing consequences of a possible slide, unless we were in low or on the cusp of low/moderate hazard conditions. In other words, avoid skiin a...

12/25/10 9:35am

Joedabaker

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

BTW Happy Holidays to all!
Not all science is exact and perfect. I get what you are saying about utilizing as much info as possible. I can't tell you the amount of geophysical projects I worked that were cut and dry science according to the engineers and ended up being a cluster of additional costs due to broken science.

Last year we dug a pit on the upper reach of a bowl and determined the snow condition to be a green light. We had over 100 years of cumulative backcountry e...

12/25/10 8:44am

Marcus

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

(sorry Marcus the these 'spats' are valuable to keep going)

Not at all -- this is great stuff. I think you may have misinterpreted my "amen" for Sky as a condemnation of all the stuff you're talking about, which isn't the case at all. I was more emphasizing my agreement with the fact that the brain is the most important thing to bring to the party.

The only thing that matters to me, re: th...

12/25/10 7:57am

savegondor

December 21, 2010, Cascade East slopes

And merry Christmas to Marcus especially. Thanks for your hard work in moderating trolls like myself.

12/25/10 7:19am

savegondor

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

author=CookieMonster link=topic=18494.msg78856#msg78856 date=1293237708]
This is one of the best discussions I've ever read here. Thanks for all the great info.

***

3. It is better to rely on local observations without using the bulletin than it is to rely on the bulletin without local observations. Obviously, this only applies to observers with the right mix of skill and experience.

I do like the...

12/25/10 7:13am

Koda

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

The big moraine we skied in the middle I bet will be the sweet spot on future trips. We had our eye on that S aspect too, but did another run where we were, then headed down for something completely different but should have just lapped up rows of tracks where we were, that was some very nice snow and a nice longer run for that elevation.

Thanks everyone for the compliments. It's fun to read a thread here about Hood, I notice there are not many of them though and often wonder if...

12/25/10 5:36am

OldHouseMan

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

A buddy and I skied in there yesterday from the WR snopark with similar conditions. The big moraine in the middle was still holding some great snow and we did a few laps next to your tracks. We decided to give the south facing moraine a shot and ended up being very disappointed with breakable crust, but I kind of expected that.

The terrain in WR has got to be some of the best on Mt Hood IMO.

12/25/10 2:15am

John Morrow

December 21, 2010, Cascade East slopes

author=RonL link=topic=18560.msg78877#msg78877 date=1293289387]
If it's where I think it is then it only has a few parking spots and Ludvig is grumbling right about now. East side has some gems that are good to know about when its soggy on our side of the pass.

Oh no, the kids are waking up! Happy Holidays everyone.

Gotta Love Ludvig---and remember your slope conservation ettiquette boys and girls! Oh which, i am...

12/24/10 11:29pm

RonL

December 21, 2010, Cascade East slopes

If it's where I think it is then it only has a few parking spots and Ludvig is grumbling right about now. East side has some gems that are good to know about when its soggy on our side of the pass.

Oh no, the kids are waking up! Happy Holidays everyone.

12/24/10 11:03pm

stoudema

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

Awesome Marcus - thanks! Merry Christmas all!

12/24/10 9:17pm

Snowolf

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

Nice! I love White River, Zig Zag and Newton Canyons

12/24/10 9:09pm

Steve C.

December 21, 2010, Cascade East slopes

Happy Holidays. Definitely not trolling and don't want to argue; just trying to be resepectful of an east side post.
Cheers.

12/24/10 5:18pm

Marcus

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

Nice -- great to see another Hood TR. Stoudema, just put you on the home page...

12/24/10 12:18pm

stoudema

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

Looks like some pretty good snow! Thanks for the report!

12/24/10 12:06pm

CookieMonster

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

This is one of the best discussions I've ever read here. Thanks for all the great info.

***

1. Ski cuts are a perfectly valid method of testing snowpack instability.

2. Skiing is also a perfectly valid method of testing snowpack instability.

3. It is better to rely on local observations without using the bulletin than it is to rely on the bulletin without local observations. Obviously, this only applies to observers with the right mix of skill and...

12/24/10 8:41am

skier8484

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

Nice TR! I'm hoping to get some turns in on Hood between now and Monday while I'm home for Christmas.

12/24/10 7:13am

Zap

12/23/2010, White River Canyon, Mt Hood

Excellent TR.

12/24/10 7:11am

pcg

12,16, 2010- White Pass, Washington

author=Passenger link=topic=18494.msg78825#msg78825 date=1293169088]
I don’t know a single skier who would not have skied that slope. The slope we were on was in fact bomber, it was an adjacent slope that went sympathetically and covered my partner at the end of his run.

Another good reminder - Tremper stresses the importance of being aware not only of the safety of the slope you are on, but of where you will end up, and that you shou...

12/24/10 4:51am

skierlyles

12-23-2010, stevens pass

Alecapone- thanks for showing me the goods around your favorite haunts. There was certainly good pow to be found, along with some not so good wind affected stuff as well- glad we got more of the former than the latter. Let's do it again under better vis.

Who would have known the Grinch had such a good slope right outside his door?! Mount Crumpit is awesome! Maybe that is why he avoided the other Whos in Whoville for so long?

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!...

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