WMC Non-Motorized Advocacy

While the degree of soil disruption is not nearly the same, if you spent any time in the summer months where snowmobiles like to play you would see soil disruption and significant plant damage/destruction. The impact of pollution from noise and exhaust are somewhat subjective but I don't think they should be down played.

I guess your soil disruption statements should be qualified. In the spring when the snow levels start rising up, it is possible that snowmobilers are riding on dirt / rocks on the trails to get up to the riding areas in the alpine. Once up there though, the snow produces quite the buffer to the trees.

Though, interestingly something that also produces significant plant damage / destruction are avalanches. I think avalanches produce more damage by a HUGE amount then snowmobiles, so we should keep the impact on the environment in perspective.

As to you issue with noise, well, I completely agree. Noise is an issue. I don't like hearing other snowmobilers with loud exhausts and aftermarket pipes. I think it has also a problem with our sport. Many locations are starting to bring in rules about maximum exhaust sound levels, and I would support them here. On a more important note, the snowmobile community has begun to see how important this issue is and has begun to self police each other and discuss the effects on others about loud exhaust on our riding areas. I think progress is being made in this area, though maybe not as fast as others would like to see.

As to your exhaust issue, I find it very funny that the WMC use to ride old snowmobiles that polluted probably 100 times more harmful emissions then the new fangled snowmobiles that he seems so against.

Aaron, you are right though that emissions are an important part of the discussion. Emissions of snowmobiles have been lacking in the last decade. It has only been the last 5 or 6 years that the manufacturers of snowmobiles have greatly reduced their emissions, based on government regulations and available technology. Manufacturers now produce direct injected two strokes similar to the boat engines. The motors are significantly cleaner compared to the older carbureted engines. Other manufacturers utilize four stroke engines that are significantly cleaner as well.

These new engines are a lot cleaner then engines only 5 years ago, so a lot of progress has been made in this area. 2012 will see another increase in the emissions requirement significantly reducing the overall snowmobile emissions yet again.

There is also the amount of fuel from two stroke engines that goes to the ground- estimated in articles I have read as high as 40%.

I would like to see that study as well. I think it is more applicable to YOUR old snowmobiles then the new direct injected snowmobiles. Wait, 40% of the fuel in the ground? How? Is this from a study of fuel emitted from snowmobiles when they are riding them upside down? Please post study you are reference, as it sounds too far fetched.

And it is clearly a myth about four stroke engines used on snowmobles- not to be seen much in use from a practical standpoint at least thus far.

crap, I guess I need to sell my Yamaha nytro then, and tell the other 5 people that ride them to sell them as well. I didn't know that, but thanks for clearing that up for me. Who would have known?

That fuel dump problem will come under increased scrutiny in the future.

I bet, I mean 40% is just atrocious! LMAO!!!

It is very interesting how different these discussions go when you talk to the FS. The doom and gloom "the writing is on the wall" scare tactics don't seem to be applicable then.

As to you article about the Mt. Spokane issue, it is indeed a shame. Though one must look a little further into the issue then a simple, "snowmobilers hurt the environment" conclusion. It has been my experience that snowmobilers were mostly allowed to ride in areas that have previously logged. Gold Creek is a very good example. Bowls and hillsides that used to be good for riding are not becoming inaccessible due to tree growth. Snowmobilers are loosing much of of our own riding areas due to the simple fact that most of it has been logged areas. Natural tree growth is reducing the available riding areas by a large amount.

Just something to think about when drawing your simplified conclusions looking for "anti snowmobiler" anything while getting ready to ride your dirty old snowmobiles that dump 40% of their fuel into the ground..

Thanks for the discussion!

The WMC Proposal has gone where stated from the start, and has received much individual and Organizational support.  We are here on TAY in order to talk with non-motorized enthusiasts so that they may speak to these issues.

Well, it seems in the responses so far that a majority of BC skiers don't really support your points.

Hopefully in this years discussions you don't continue to purge the same rhetoric you did last year. Although, as a result of last years spewing, there has been more effort and conversation to bringing about peer pressure in the sledding community. And physical effort to help USFS in identigying boundaries etc.

I think for what snow we've been able to enjoy, I've only heard of a few incursions, one of which was raised by you. the sport is getting more popular, as witnessed by me in my regular riding areas, even as tools for BC skiers/boarders, so the density is going to increase in the available limited areas.. I think focusing on the corridor idea that was brought up last year is the only fair solution and it doesn't restrict more areas. Far more land is available to non-motorized users and there should be a way to get you to those areas without restricting the right of other legal users on limited legal recreation land.

WMC, what have you done to help enforce illegal incursions or promote shared responsible use in mixed use areas? How about helping to identify to the USFS ways to increase access to the higher quantity of available non-motorized land.

And, although we pay about the same for parking permits, our taxes on gas is what pays for the grooming of trails. but I will say that I'd be willing to pay a bit more if it helps improve access, enforcement and quality for everyone, including skiers..;>)

And, although we pay about the same for parking permits, our taxes on gas is what pays for the grooming of trails. but I will say that I'd be willing to pay a bit more if it helps improve access, enforcement and quality for everyone, including skiers..;>)

NOVA grants used to help pay for backcountry rangers and ORV enforcement. That money is gone

I'm still waiting for a good argument for allowing unrestricted snow mobile access on FS land. I'm not anti snow mobile any more than I'm anti dirt bike or 4x4, I just think snow mobile use needs to be regulated on FS lands the same as any other motorized use. You can't deny that motorized use has more potential for environmental impact than non motorized use. I have no problem sharing the Forest trails and roads with dirt bikes, 4x4s and snowmobiles.

"Well, it seems in the responses so far that a majority of BC skiers don't really support your points."

I don't think responses on this thread are representative of backcountry skier opinions. The overwhelming majority of us just don't care to participate in this sort of discussion, whatever our leanings. Personally, I've found the tone off-putting, and I prefer to direct my energy elsewhere.

Note that I'm not stating an opinion about the issue at hand--I'm merely commenting on the simple statement quoted above. And I'm not criticizing any particular poster, here or elsewhere.

Here's to a resumption of the bottomless powders of mostly-imaginary yesteryears!

Mark