WMC Update 2012

Well, sir, we are certain that there is no argument, justification, demographic. sense of fairness or ethics, anything that will convince Yammadog or nearly all snowmobile enthusiasts to consider another user group. There is no evidence that any snowmobile rider is interested in leaving one square foot of untracked snow for skiers or for snowshoers.

During one day of a five hour ski tour last January three of us climbed 1000 ft. slopes on skis on a peak and got first tracks on three different aspects, in nice powder. The 14 snowmobile riders that I mentioned previously not once but twice shared the resource by following us twice, then tracking the slope beside us that we had manged to get a run on, when there was much more open slope away from us. The ruts from the  snowmobiles rendered those areas unusable for skiing for weeks after. That is a great example, Mr Yammadog, of sharing, the type of sharing that you tell us you are teaching to your children.

Snowmobile Forum opponents claimed to email Becky Heath with automatic opposition very quickly- with just the statement of opposition and no logic other than "we oppose."

WMC has in common with Mr Skoog the active intellectual consideration of our use and others' uses. Mr Skoog has valid points which in the end may serve to strengthen WMC and TSP.

To begin with skiers and snowshoers in Washington have 4,423,676 acres that should have 0 snowmobiles. And in the summer it should have 0 mountain bikes/motorcycles or atv's for the hikers

Secondly, let's see the proposal on what and how much you are talking about and then we can have a real valid conversation. Until then, you look like a bunch of self riteous haters....

And, I can't speak for the 30,000+ sledders in WA that pay to have groomed trails, that you also get to use, but I can say that when I have the opportunity to make a difference in how sledders ride and respect others in the area, particularly skeirs/boarders on slopes..I do. I also speak my mind on taking care of the BC so that the future generations can enjoy the area as well.

If some yahoo wrecked a slope that you were actively using, say something to them. We need to rebuild common courtesy in this country instead of infighting for the same space by creating sides to fight over a patch of land that we should be sharing.

Yammadog - I appreciate your intent to persuade fellow riders to respect other recreationalists as well as the environment. I also appreciate your call for common courtesey.

I've had multiple pleasant encounters with snowmobilers while out skiing, including sharing food (and being offered beer from their full case) with a pair on a ridge  a few years back, where we discussed avalanche safety gear (they thought beacons were a rip-off and didn't want to buy them; we encouraged them to go for it given what they described liking to ride). Some snowmobilers also slow down to pass us on the trail.

I've also been given the finger and purposefully sprayed with snow (this despite our having gotten ourselves and our dogs off the snowmobile trail while they were still in the distance - something we always do for our own safety), and often had riders accelerate right before passing us. I've had my vehicle vandalized at a trailhead. I've been threateningly yelled at at the trailhead for using up parking space (despite having the same sno-park pass, and despite having allowed plenty of room for their unloading and pulling their vehicles out). So to be frank, I'm not super optimistic about being able to widely spread common courtesey, and in many cases I don't know if the riders I'm watching paint a slope are the kind that would trade food, or break my passing mirror and give me the finger, and I'm not eager to push the wrong kind over the anger edge. A search on "skier" on Snowest provides plenty of additional evidence of riders who have zero intention of offering me any common courtesy (and who offer up threats instead, at least on the net). On top of this, how do I even get their attention when they're so focused on the path ahead of them, and their machines are so loud? 

I've done what I can to reach out and be commonly courteous in the past decade and a half, and yet the loss of useful (and quiet)  ski terrain is increasing, not decreasing. I will continue the reaching out, but I do not expect it to help with the primary issues raised by this thread.

You guys hog up parking and should also be banned from "wilderness"?!

This is pretty funny. If you proposed that sno-parks have half the parking reserved for snowmo trailer rigs, and half (by square footage) for vehicles w/o trailers, I'd likely jump at the offer. I won't hold my breath.

As for all those acres, as noted above, a key issue is how few of them are accessible to day-touring skiers.

To begin with skiers and snowshoers in Washington have 4,423,676 acres that should have 0 snowmobiles. And in the summer it should have 0 mountain bikes/motorcycles or atv's for the hikers

Secondly, let's see the proposal on what and how much you are talking about and then we can have a real valid conversation. Until then, you look like a bunch of self riteous haters....

And, I can't speak for the 30,000+ sledders in WA that pay to have groomed trails, that you also get to use, but I can say that when I have the opportunity to make a difference in how sledders ride and respect others in the area, particularly skeirs/boarders on slopes..I do. I also speak my mind on taking care of the BC so that the future generations can enjoy the area as well.

If some yahoo wrecked a slope that you were actively using, say something to them. We need to rebuild common courtesy in this country instead of infighting for the same space by creating sides to fight over a patch of land that we should be sharing.

Thanks, but there is no sharing. That is a fantasy byline. Snowmobile riding is unregulated and we observe riders seek every square foot of untracked snow. Snowmobile riders will continue to work cutting new trails into areas to find more untracked- because it is fun, great sport! We understand.

The riders who tracked our skiing beside us were actually very nice middle aged and older folks. We chatted a few times. They were just having fun, not trying to do anything against us. We do not believe that snowmobile riders realize the effects on a skier and on skiing of a passing snowmobile. We also believe that snowmobilers will not acknowledge that snowmobile impacts on snow renders it largely unsuitable for skiing. Snowmobile riding and skiing are incompatible on the same terrain, therefore we need areas designated for each use.

We are asking to set aside some snow for skiers and snowshoers.

Thanks, but there is no sharing. That is a fantasy byline. Snowmobile riding is unregulated and we observe riders seek every square foot of untracked snow. Snowmobile riders will continue to work cutting new trails into areas to find more untracked- because it is fun, great sport! We understand.

The riders who tracked our skiing beside us were actually very nice middle aged and older folks. We chatted a few times. They were just having fun, not trying to do anything against us. We do not believe that snowmobile riders realize the effects on a skier and on skiing of a passing snowmobile. We also believe that snowmobilers will not acknowledge that snowmobile impacts on snow renders it largely unsuitable for skiing. Snowmobile riding and skiing are incompatible on the same terrain, therefore we need areas designated for each use.

We are asking to set aside some snow for skiers and snowshoers.

Well, it's been entertaining...but if you don't believe in a compromise or have the ability to communicate effectively then we're done talking until it gets to the "official" stage.

And remember, that you do have designated area that sleds cannot enter...cheers.

Well, it's been entertaining...but if you don't believe in a compromise or have the ability to communicate effectively then we're done talking until it gets to the "official" stage.

And remember, that you do have designated area that sleds cannot enter...cheers.

Thank you for your comments and for your civility. We do not expect that snowmobile riders will consider the needs of another user group- non-motorized winter recreationists. We do not expect any support at any time from snowmobile riders.

We ride snowmobiles, we are not trying to ban snowmobiles or regulate them outside of non-motorized areas.

The Wenatchee Mountains Coalition and the Thousand Skiers Project seek USFS Designation of new Non-Motorized Areas for winter recreation.

Have fun out there and all the best!

Has it ever been considered to maybe look at trying to get more winter access for Non-motorized usage without taking area away from a specific user group? Snowmobilers would probably support this, and if there is enough support for something like this from ALL or MOST winter users it would have a higher likelyhood of being done.