WMC Update 2012

I think he's communicating it very well and WMC's strict adherence to repeating his message time after time in every post would make a seasoned political spokesman proud. Well done sir.

He's even convinced me that some of his arguments are valid although I still struggle with the exclusion bit. His argument that serious BC skiing and snowmobiling are incompatible in the same area and sharing therefore impossible, I think....... is correct.
However I do also think skiers and snowshoers should stay the hell out of the areas where snowmobilers do congregate en mass.

Like many others and you , I think he'd win a few more over if he posted detailed maps of the area in question, the specific area he wants changed and some hard statistics about use. Generalized bitching less effective than specific bitching!

For all his talk of banning, restricting, categorizing other people's snowmobiling (while legitimizing his own) for all his making value judgments as to others recreation on public lands, general behavior and morals.

Whoever WMC actually is he hasn't actually addressed the point he made in his OP.

USFS lacks the ability to protect even Wilderness from snowmobile use.

How/who/where is the $ coming from...... to police your new restrictions?

In reply to ruffryder regarding fair and equal sharing of the forest:

On the Okanogan-Wenatchee NF (OWNF) there exists about 30% wilderness area (total acreage). That leaves 70% of the forest open to motorized use in the winter. How by any strecth of the imagination is that parity?

Granted there are a few small areas closed to snowmobile use outside of wilderness areas, Tronsen Meadows for example, which is so small a skier can cross the entire area in 2-3 hours of ski touring. But even counting those very small non-motorized areas that exist the total acreage available for winter motorized use on the OWNF is huge.

WMC is only asking for a fair and equitable sharing of the forest resource and as the current situation now exists that is not the case.

I believe that wilderness makes up 40% and not 30% (according to the OKNF website).  

That remaining 60% also includes Stevens Pass, Mission Ridge, Snoqualmie Summits, White Pass, and Loup Loup ski areas. Also note that many of these ski areas have extensive cross country ski trails, and the lands for the ski hills include more then just the actual ski runs.  

How did you come to the determination that the remaining 60% of FS and SP land that isn't designated Wilderness, gives free run for snowmobiles?

Generalized bitching less effective than specific bitching!

AWESOME!!!! Can I use this? Seriously, that is the best line I have heard in a while! NICE!!

CookieMonster's rant sounds like he is describing Scotsman. Scotsman, your original post came off as selfish as you claim the WMC poster's was. I could see where you posts were going before you declared your intent to track out our stashes on your new sled. You're most likely worried about future access to good "ghost riding" being restricted because your local Crystal bc is getting tracked out too fast and you want to travel farther for the goods and are tired of working for your turns. CookieMonster's description of interior BC is already approaching reality here on the east side of the Cascades. The forest is more open over here allowing for completely unrestricted travel, mostly, for snow machines. The areas where snow machine mobility is restricted is not even fun for xc style skiing. You(Scotsman) agree about the Heather/Skyline ridge area being designated non-motorized, what about the entire forest surrounding Mission Ridge ski area? The areas adjacent to Mission Ridge are part of this proposal and are currently abuzz with snow mobiles on any given weekend, with regular incursions into an operating ski area. Most snow machine users I've encountered off designated travel routes, legally operated, seem to have the same taker attitude as you and lack respect for the mountain environment in winter. Typically bc skiers will not ski on top of others and will ask about your intentions to ski in a given drainage in order to share and for safety, sledders will swarm about you and greedily track out all skiable terrain without regard for safety or sharing. Almost every bc skier I know has experienced this on the eastside. OHV and motorcycle use is restricted to roads and trail in the seasons without snow cover, why should winter be any different in many areas? Sledders routinely travel over terrain with thin or no snow cover in their pursuit of powder or for highmarking, destroying vegetation and disturbing the underlying soil. If this is hard to believe, you haven't spent much time in   areas frequented by sledders.

Well actually Aaron- sweetie.. the stash comment was a joke but you've never been very humorous have you?
And no I'm not tired or lazy and earn my turns all the time.
And I don't have a sled but am honest enough to post that I intend to get one to enhance my range like the esteemed TobyT does whom I greatly admire.
And the Crystal BC is not getting tracked out- if you know here to go and expend the effort, in fact I was chided recently on TAY by someone because I said I was the only person out there ( commenting on the solitude I had found)
AND BC skiers routinely trample vegetation and underlying soil to get to their spring corn... see many of the negative comments from meadow rovers about us " holier than thou" BC skiers.
I have seen many doyens of TAY, (nice ones... not like me,) trample vegetation when coming out of the Stash or the patch or at Sunrise.
I know as I've usually been following them much to my internal shame.
However, as much as I dislike your post and your personal attacks left uncommented on by that paragon of fairness...Marcus, I do have to admit that based upon some independent research I have done, your situation over on the East side does seem to have reached a critical mass and that some areas need to be "saved" for the daytourer.

Well actually, there was a post not too long ago about snowmobiles when a fairly prominent TAYer called for laying out fishing line so that snowmobiler tracks could become entangled. He was shot down pretty fast but for the record. I believe the thread then devolved into analogies with another TAY'er comparing them ( snowmobilers)to the Nazis. Godwins law was then invoked.

Good point, Scotsman. It is a bad idea to commit violence or vandalism, poke with a ski pole, rooster tail at people from a snowmobile. We all should try to behave in a civil fashion. Both sides, all of us need to behave in a civil fashion (preaching to ourselves here also). These issues raise the emotions. Some of us at WMC have experienced some concerning stuff directed at us and at our homes, so it is better to just not deal with that if possible. Also, Mr. Scotsman, I think that you may appreciate how one can get fired up in return, especially in response to a nasty or threatening message to oneself or one's home.

We have great opportunities for winter recreation here. WMC believes that a new type of management of winter recreation is now needed.

So, let us attempt to have discussion. I believe that we are learning from each other here. Thanks to TAY for allowing this discussion!