WMC Update 2012

Let's try to keep this from devolving, if we can. No need for mudslinging -- it's a heated enough topic without making it more personal than it needs to be.

We will point out that the reality is that one use- snowmobile riding- dominates the largest portion of Forest outside of Wilderness. That includes many of the Forest areas accessible from plowed-road. USFS provides some excellent non-motorized areas which we appreciate and use. These are a tiny fraction of the Forest. So yes, sir, you and many snowmobile riders support one use over the other. We are asking for new USFS Management that will balance these incompatible uses fairly.

As I understand this statement, you would also be willing to exclude certain areas from skier access and snowmobile only? You guys hog up parking and should also be banned from "wilderness"?! Where do we draw the line? I'd be interested to hear a point from this group on offering something to someone else instead of just claiming your own rights.....

In the meantime, I'll offer free rides to the back country to be sure you get first tracks before sledders "ruin" your area....

First, good will to all.  Even, nay, especially those that aren’t going to like what I have to say.  There’s more to being in the backcountry than just powder (I know-Blasphemy!).  Personally, the thing that gets me about snow mobiles is the noise and the exhaust.  When I interact with folks, in the backcountry or otherwise, I typically don’t blow smoke in their faces and scream in their ears, but that is the affect that snow mobiles have on my backcountry experience.  This is air and noise pollution.  When I’m on the Coleman Glacier, the sledders on the Easton can’t hear me, but I can hear them.  It sucks.  Perhaps someone can explain to me why they need to be so loud.  My point is that I’m quite sure my impact on the sledders’ backcountry experience is significantly less than their impact on mine.  Snow mobiles have a greater impact on both the resource and the other users than do other user groups.  I think that this is the gist of the reason that snow mobiles are already (rightfully) restricted to less turf than other user groups.  Unfortunately for us all, the more sledders, the more impact.  I would hazard that this is also the reason that (some) skiers may feel more entitled to the resource, or at least a strong desire for more places without the noise and the smoke.  Oh, and I hate it when snow shoers stomp up the skin track too, but at least they’re quiet and don’t smell bad.  Most of them anyway.

As well, has anyone ever tried and/or had any success reporting wilderness boundary or non-motorized violators?

Cheers,

Educating the groups to share(like I do my 7-9 yo boys) is truly the only answer.

As in "you have a legal shot at all the cookies on the plate, but I'm faster than you and am going to lick them all quickly first and then start chowing!!" :

If all sledders were as nice as you, and gave lifts and offered first tracks to skiers and such, I'd not respond as I just did. But frankly, I'm pretty sure we've not run across each other yet out there, as I've yet to see this amazing degree of generosity on display.

First, good will to all.  Even, nay, especially those that aren’t going to like what I have to say.  There’s more to being in the backcountry than just powder (I know-Blasphemy!).  Personally, the thing that gets me about snow mobiles is the noise and the exhaust.  When I interact with folks, in the backcountry or otherwise, I typically don’t blow smoke in their faces and scream in their ears, but that is the affect that snow mobiles have on my backcountry experience.  This is air and noise pollution.  When I’m on the Coleman Glacier, the sledders on the Easton can’t hear me, but I can hear them.  It sucks.  Perhaps someone can explain to me why they need to be so loud.  My point is that I’m quite sure my impact on the sledders’ backcountry experience is significantly less than their impact on mine.  Snow mobiles have a greater impact on both the resource and the other users than do other user groups.  I think that this is the gist of the reason that snow mobiles are already (rightfully) restricted to less turf than other user groups.  Unfortunately for us all, the more sledders, the more impact.  I would hazard that this is also the reason that (some) skiers may feel more entitled to the resource, or at least a strong desire for more places without the noise and the smoke.  Oh, and I hate it when snow shoers stomp up the skin track too, but at least they’re quiet and don’t smell bad.  Most of them anyway.

As well, has anyone ever tried and/or had any success reporting wilderness boundary or non-motorized violators?

Cheers,

Great points and a great tone! Yes, we have been reporting for years. We have even been on the cell talking to both the Sheriff and USFS personnel while we watch snowmobiles ridden in Wilderness. It is not a few who violate Wilderness, there is regular, intentional riding of snowmobiles in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. USFS personnel will explain as they have to us that they know about the areas that we report that have snowmobile Wilderness trespass, and usually have told us about others. USFS will also talk of their inability to enforce this problem, even transmitted these very words while asking for compliance to snowmobile folks who posted the emails on Snowest and on BackcountryRebels. USFS folks are very patient and kind in discussing this, including the USFS Law Enforcement Officer. But the LEO has other matters to deal with.

Again,we restate that there are clearly many more non-motorized winter recreationists than there are folks who own the snowmobiles that cost $9k to $12k new that can climb the areas proposed by WMC (see original post please) for non-motorized designation. So our point is, we ask USFS to manage the resource for both uses. At this time, the general Forest in winter is without question dominated by snowmobile riding.

As I understand this statement, you would also be willing to exclude certain areas from skier access and snowmobile only? You guys hog up parking and should also be banned from "wilderness"?! Where do we draw the line? I'd be interested to hear a point from this group on offering something to someone else instead of just claiming your own rights.....

In the meantime, I'll offer free rides to the back country to be sure you get first tracks before sledders "ruin" your area....

Yes, sir you are indeed claiming it all for your use- snowmobile riding. Do you ski? We are familiar with your posts on Snowest as an avid snowmobile rider and see that you are going on there and here right now.

As far as Sno Parks, a vehicle that has displayed a valid Permit may park there. Perhaps sir you could share here some of the sentiment on this topic that is expressed on your usual forum? Sharing, eh?

WMC is seeking areas for non-motorized winter use so that skiers (etc) may have a shot at quiet recreation on untracked snow in some reasonable balance of the Forest total area. WMC has never stated that we seek prohibition or regulation of snowmobiles outside of non-motorized areas.