WMC Update 2012

Again, ignorance of avy danger or ethic of cleanliness or the like are not playing into my thoughts here. I don't think I'm "more or less entitled to this stuff." I just know that, as well described by others above, your ability to track out terrain in short order is FAR more efficient than mine. By at least an order of magnitude. And to be clear, I don't think (but can't be sure unless WMC antes up the map a few of us have asked for) that anyone is suggesting taking away ALL your terrain. But frankly, outside of wilderness areas and a few other spots, you guys have the upper hand by far, and so if the trends continue toward the BC endpoint described above, your user group will be taking away nearly all of my accessible terrain (from a practical, if not theoretical standpoint). Perhaps a better analogy than BMX bikes in a skate court is a shooting range in a skate court (and no, this is not an anti-gun rant). I'm pretty sure that in the case of this mix, the target shooters win, and the skaters find a new venue, assuming other venues are available (otherwise they just quit the sport...). I just want to be sure I have venues available for day tours, that don't require me to get a sled to travel to the edge of a distant wilderness boundary in order to be free of sled tracks. I don't want ALL the terrain preserved for practical day tour skiing - just some of it.

Which brings me to wilderness areas. Yes, there are slivers of wilderness that are skier accessible on a day tour. Very small slivers. And huge areas that aren't.

Again, ignorance of avy danger or ethic of cleanliness or the like are not playing into my thoughts here. I don't think I'm "more or less entitled to this stuff." I just know that, as well described by others above, your ability to track out terrain in short order is FAR more efficient than mine. By at least an order of magnitude. And to be clear, I don't think (but can't be sure unless WMC antes up the map a few of us have asked for) that anyone is suggesting taking away ALL your terrain. But frankly, outside of wilderness areas and a few other spots, you guys have the upper hand by far, and so if the trends continue toward the BC endpoint described above, your user group will be taking away nearly all of my accessible terrain (from a practical, if not theoretical standpoint). Perhaps a better analogy than BMX bikes in a skate court is a shooting range in a skate court (and no, this is not an anti-gun rant). I'm pretty sure that in the case of this mix, the target shooters win, and the skaters find a new venue, assuming other venues are available (otherwise they just quit the sport...). I just want to be sure I have venues available for day tours, that don't require me to get a sled to travel to the edge of a distant wilderness boundary in order to be free of sled tracks. I don't want ALL the terrain preserved for practical day tour skiing - just some of it.

Which brings me to wilderness areas. Yes, there are slivers of wilderness that are skier accessible on a day tour. Very small slivers. And huge areas that aren't.

Using an analogy that is more closely related to similar interest is what we are talking about...in the map posted earlier there seems to be tons of wilderness shown. Or could this be about easy access to the areas of interest?

The problem is that the areas are being reduced every year, along with the capability of the sleds. Where we had many areas to ride, now we are bottled up in smaller and fewer areas and you see more people in your area, we sledders see it also in areas that were only touched by a few, now you almost have to be in the area when the storm stops to get that sweet stuff. Go to any of the sledding sites and look at the land use sections to see how many thousands of acres are being proposed as wilderness or non-motorized use.

I have yet to see the suggestion that any areas be added for sledding, only taken and yet that is not enough. Again the line continues to get moved until the group is eliminated. when have you ever seen an area be taken away from skiers? Only more exclusive space added that I know of...

Educating the groups to share(like I do my 7-9 yo boys) is truly the only answer. How many things have you seen the gov't manage that's been successful?

Jim Oker - Very well said.

Yammadog, you just don't get it, do you? Sledders have been defiling the mountains for 20 years now.

And human-powered travelers aren't more entitled to the powder, it's just a question of level playing fields. By relying on machines, on any given morning you and five of your buddies can track out an entire bowl before the skiers even get into the alpine. It's a pretty unequal position for a human to contend with machines that can climb 30,000 feet an hour. You've come here for a discussion but it's pretty clear you're just here to listen and report back, and are not willing to contribute anything except "hey, tough bounce" along with feeble attempts to sanitise sledding culture.

WMC isn't talking about banning sleds, it's talking about making sure that skiers have options for peaceful day trips. Your "just stay in the wilderness" attitude is a clear example of why this is necessary. Sledders don't "self police" because any form of policing is simply antithetical to sled culture. Please don't try to white wash the sledding scene as a bunch of responsible folks with a few bad apples ... there ain't enough white paint on this side of the Continental Divide. Sledders have earned their reputation all by themselves and it's certainly well-deserved.

The sad fact of the matter is that the very nature of the sled makes it the only viable access option for the litterers, drinkers, the noisy, the destructive, and the reckless. These people don't belong in the backcountry, but sleds have allowed hundreds of morons to bring their disrespectful vibe to places it doesn't belong and is NOT wanted. Maybe that's why there are increasing restrictions? Sorry, but once again, sledders have only themselves to thank. As a whole, your user group demonstrates ZERO respect for the mountains ... and has only itself to blame ... ever heard the phrase "don't piss in your own drinking water"?

Hey sledders, open wide!

As far as whether anyone would like to support this Project, please take a look at what we describe. We ask for your support. We will be happy to look at proposals by skiers in regard to other areas, we are not aware of any- and in principle, we will support designation of non-motorized winter recreation areas on the Forest. What we have done is to start this model of advocacy, and we have defined a goal in order to make this more than a discussion. It needs to start somewhere, so we are starting it in areas that are familiar to us- but also areas where increasing numbers of skiers and snowshoers from Puget Sound are recreating. Also, these areas are perhaps some of the most pristine areas outside of Wilderness in the Wenatchee Mountains.

Mt. Lillian and Tronsen Head are moderate day trips similar to Diamond Head, have open slopes of various aspects, not big vertical but beautiful country and pristine- unlogged, meadows, fantastic views from a vantage point that takes in the the Cascades and Stuart Range, and clear views to the east and south as well.  These peaks are on the same ridge to the east of Diamond Head, Tronsen Head being to the north of Haney Meadow and the Horse Camp. Snowshoers from Puget Sound  have been using this area  in increasing numbers in recent years. The area around Lake Clara and Mission Peak borders Mission Ridge Ski Area and is some great day-touring 14 road miles above Wenatchee.

Several skiers here on TAY have skied Earl Peak self-powered in a day, it is also a good snomo-assist trip as are Navaho, Brothers, Iron, Ingalls, Fortune. As it is now, who would want to go to that range that has so much open terrain for an overnight ski trip- only to find it tracked by snowmobiles and then see perhaps several snowmobiles riding around the slope or basin that you are standing on with skis?

As far as maps, we view topos and would invite those interested to look at that terrain as described:

Areas include the unroaded Wenatchee Mountains ridge crest from Van Epps Pass to Three Brothers (mountain) Including Ingalls Peak, Fortune Peak, Iron Peak, peaks surrounding Bean Creek, Earl Peak, Navaho Peak, Three Brothers and the Wenatchee Mountains Crest from Rd 9716 to the west of Diamond Head across Tronsen Head, Mt. Lillian including down to the Old Ellensburg trail to Mission Peak and on to the Mission Ridge Road including Lake Clara, Mission Peak, and surrounding areas.

In comparison, again looking at topos, one may see much larger areas to the south that are snowmobile country, many miles of natural open slopes.

Snowmobile riders want the same powder as do skiers, and there is not enough to go around, especially considering the amount of snow that is quickly tracked by snowmobiles. Both user groups have legitimate uses, therefore we ask that both uses be accommodated by creating new and significant non-motorized winter recreation areas on the Forest.

Thanks for all of the great discussion!

Damn there's an awful lot of people here assuming their recreational choices on public lands are more important than others.

Aaron - I can assure that Scottie isn't tired of "working for his turns" lot's of others will confirm this.

Thanks Yammadog: You

We will point out that the reality is that one use- snowmobile riding- dominates the largest portion of Forest outside of Wilderness. That includes many of the Forest areas accessible from plowed-road. USFS provides some excellent non-motorized areas which we appreciate and use. These are a tiny fraction of the Forest. So yes, sir, you and many snowmobile riders support one use over the other. We are asking for new USFS Management that will balance these incompatible uses fairly.

Jim Oker - Very well said.

Yammadog, you just don't get it, do you? Sledders have been defiling the mountains for 20 years now.

And human-powered travelers aren't more entitled to the powder, it's just a question of level playing fields. By relying on machines, on any given morning you and five of your buddies can track out an entire bowl before the skiers even get into the alpine. It's a pretty unequal position for a human to contend with machines that can climb 30,000 feet an hour. You've come here for a discussion but it's pretty clear you're just here to listen and report back, and are not willing to contribute anything except "hey, tough bounce" along with feeble attempts to sanitise sledding culture.

WMC isn't talking about banning sleds, it's talking about making sure that skiers have options for peaceful day trips. Your "just stay in the wilderness" attitude is a clear example of why this is necessary. Sledders don't "self police" because any form of policing is simply antithetical to sled culture. Please don't try to white wash the sledding scene as a bunch of responsible folks with a few bad apples ... there ain't enough white paint on this side of the Continental Divide. Sledders have earned their reputation all by themselves and it's certainly well-deserved.

The sad fact of the matter is that the very nature of the sled makes it the only viable access option for the litterers, drinkers, the noisy, the destructive, and the reckless. These people don't belong in the backcountry, but sleds have allowed hundreds of morons to bring their disrespectful vibe to places it doesn't belong and is NOT wanted. Maybe that's why there are increasing restrictions? Sorry, but once again, sledders have only themselves to thank. As a whole, your user group demonstrates ZERO respect for the mountains ... and has only itself to blame ... ever heard the phrase "don't piss in your own drinking water"?

Hey sledders, open wide!

LMAO....Proving your elitist stature with nothing but name calling and preconceived opinion. heck I bet you don't even know anyone that operates a gas powered anything...

I see plenty of damage to the backcountry by non sledders, this you can see when you go in the non winter months. I report to no one but my own heart and family. You'd be one of those people I would warn my boys about. And suggest they leave you some yellow snow to melt for drinking water....

I am here simply to offer the counter to your type of vile negativity about the other form of winter recreation and to let you know that as a group we are not standing for any additional closure by policing our own and fighting the good fight....I'm sure this will be discussed in the public forum as well as these sites. But be sure, we will show up for the discussion.

Like posted before, it would be nice to see a map for the suggested areas.