WMC Update 2012

Now there's a clever reply. I like it, and its a good argument but as someone once " statistics, damn statistics."
The problem with your statistic ( and you know it) is that much of the land you say is available for snowmobile access is NOT because the terrain is too steep or forested for motorized access. It is however accessible by non-motorized users who can navigate the rugged terrain and tight trees.
Your argument could actually be used against you:
If you determine the actual area that could be reasonably be used by snowmobilers even with their increased performance and compare it to the areas that can be reached by hikers, climbers and skiers, you will find a completely different statistic ( if you are being fair).
This would lead one to the conclusion that areas that can reasonably be reached and enjoyed by snowmobile skiers is quite a small percentage of the whole and probably in line with the demographics  of non-motorized versus motorized and would then suggest these areas need to be protected for use by motorized users.

Great arguments and thanks. For many years some WMC folks have accessed skitouring by snowmobile, and continue to do so. We support the use of snowmobiles to approach backcountry ski touring- and hope to preserve some untracked terrain upon which to do that after the snowmobile is parked. If one goes to the mountains where snowmobiles are ridden it is possible to observe the fantastic performance of the snowmobiles and their riders. Modern machines are ridden easily on angles of 20 to 40 degrees, by men and women, a casual thing. Modern snowmobiles can sidehill traverse very impressively. And this is now mainstream.

Clearly not all skiing terrain is ridden by snowmobiles but a significant amount that is detrimental- or exclusive- to other uses. And that is increasing continually, snowmobiles may find your personal ski stash soon. We have experienced plenty of ski touring, currently, in areas where snowmobiles are ridden We relate from our experiences.

Again we ask for parity of uses- whatever the numbers. There are significant numbers of non-motorized winter recreationists. The Forest outside of Wilderness in winter allows a disproportionate amount of area to be tracked by one use- snowmobiles. We do not wish to prohibit snowmobiles on the Forest, some of us use them. We ask for more areas to be designated as non-motorized. We began by requesting non-motorized status in winter for areas that we are familiar, in the Wenatchee Mountains.

Other areas outside the Wenatchee Mountains would be reasonable for parity of uses and suited to non-motorized status. We are attempting this goal using this model. In the future, other areas in Washington may be advocated for non-motorized status in winter.

Thanks, great discussion!

This too is a misleading argument.

Both motorized and non-motorized users prefer to play in open, alpine country.

It's true that motorized use is constrained by tight forest. But that's not where they want to play. They want to play in the alpine, same as skiers. And as long as they have one navigable corridor into the alpine, then the entire alpine is open to them. It doesn't matter how far the corridor is from the play area. Snowmobiles are not limited by distance.

I've seen snowmobile tracks in places (like the south shoulder of Silver Peak) where I thought they could never get. But they did, somehow. It just takes one corridor, and I imagine that the more challenging the access, the more fun it is for them.

Well, a good argument  but a bit misleading as well. There are many alpine areas that cannot be accessed by snowmobile skiers even if there is a corridor because the area is too steep or rocky or requires a climb, couloir or bootpack to get to.

Extremely experienced and ballsy snowmobilers can get to some pretty gnarly places just as experienced and skilled ski mountaineers like you can reach places I will never be able to. Why should they be denied the same satisfaction to demonstrate their hard earned skill and courage that I'm sure you experience.

There are only a few of these corridors compared to the areas that can be reached by determined , skilled climbers and skiers.

For every ski slope or ridge example that you give that could be accessed by a snowmobile I'm pretty sure somebody could give you 100 examples of areas they can't.

What's needed is a proper study taking into consideration all the points above, terrain, buffer zones, demographics etc, not just some unilateral decision by the USFS just because a thousand skiers write them a letter. Hell, post this thread onto a snowmobile site and I bet they'll get more than a thousand letters from snowmobilers as BC skiers are an unorganized , apathetic group( original poster excluded of course) as I've said before.

The government should do a comprehensive study before designating more non-motorized access and ensure its' fair. That should buy the snowmobilers another 10 years.!!! HA HA

Well, a good argument  but a bit misleading as well. There are many alpine areas that cannot be accessed by snowmobile skiers even if there is a corridor because the area is too steep or rocky or requires a climb, couloir or bootpack to get to.

Extremely experienced and ballsy snowmobilers can get to some pretty gnarly places just as experienced and skilled ski mountaineers like you can reach places I will never be able to. Why should they be denied the same satisfaction to demonstrate their hard earned skill and courage that I'm sure you experience.

There are only a few of these corridors compared to the areas that can be reached by determined , skilled climbers and skiers.

Not all skiers, not all trips are to gnarly inaccessible terrain. Same for snowmobiles. Why should one use have all of the terrain close to the car, all of the open slopes, all of the good skiing right up to the Wilderness Boundary?

Please consider the amount of powder snow that a snowmobile packs, then trenches, in one day- or one hour. Stock snowmobiles are available with 155 HP, long tracks, great suspension, capable of highway speeds. When one says share and share alike how many runs can a skier get in a day on that snow slope compared to the snowmobiler? And this may only be imagined iff that wonderful, kind, citizen on that snowmobile stops riding that great snow slope and offers it to you, the skier who wants to share and share alike. Oh yeah, then there are 50 other snowmobile riders in the area who would track and trench your ski stash in minutes- because it is powder (!).

Sorry to tell you, but this is coming to your ski stash soon. We need parity of designated winter uses between motorized and non-motorized. Parity means to share fairly, it does not mean to exclude the other use.

Extremely experienced and ballsy snowmobilers can get to some pretty gnarly places just as experienced and skilled ski mountaineers like you can reach places I will never be able to. Why should they be denied the same satisfaction to demonstrate their hard earned skill and courage that I'm sure you experience.

I don't want to deny snowmobilers that experience. As I wrote in my initial post in this thread, the key question is where do you draw the buffer zones.

To reiterate the question that I asked before, how many of us think that snowmobile access to Heather/Skyline Ridge at Stevens Pass is appropriate? Let's see a show of hands. If you think snowmobiles should not go there, because it is such an accessible non-wilderness location used by skiers, then you are in favor of the non-wilderness buffer principle. So my question (which WMC is asking as well) is where else should we create these buffers?

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Edited to update link to my initial post, following thread replacement by Marcus.

Not all skiers, not all trips are to gnarly inaccessible terrain. Same for snowmobiles. Why should one use have all of the terrain close to the car, all of the open slopes, all of the good skiing right up to the Wilderness Boundary?

Please consider the amount of powder snow that a snowmobile packs, then trenches, in one day- or one hour. Stock snowmobiles are available with 155 HP, long tracks, great suspension, capable of highway speeds. When one says share and share alike how many runs can a skier get in a day on that snow slope compared to the snowmobiler? And this may only be imagined iff that wonderful, kind, citizen on that snowmobile stops riding that great snow slope and offers it to you, the skier who wants to share and share alike. Oh yeah, then there are 50 other snowmobile riders in the area who would track and trench your ski stash in minutes- because it is powder (!).

Sorry to tell you, but this is coming to your ski stash soon. We need parity of designated winter uses between motorized and non-motorized. Parity means to share fairly, it does not mean to exclude the other use.

Well it does no matter how you spin it. Snomobilers can't go into non-motorized areas without breaking the law but skiers CAN go into motorized access areas, so there IS exclusion of one group.
If you are promoting the concept of parity based upon no skiers, hikers or climbers in motorized areas and the areas designated fairly based upon demographics, quality areas for both and then I'm right with you as that's fair. BUT you aren't.

Your arguments , at least to me, make it very clear that what you want is for the snowmobile to be constricted to an access vehicle and not allowed into  the powder skiing area to track up the slope. Whenever you mention that your group uses snowmobiles you emphasis the word "for access" inferring that they only be used to get to a buffer zone or a "parking" area.  This is your agenda

You are absolutely right, the new machines are changing the game but your approach to just ask the USFS to simply designate more areas based upon a letter writing campaign without a proper study to determine fairness to both sides is wrong (but you're entitled to try, and I respect that).

Me, I'm getting one and will be in your stash soon.

As far as historical use, plenty of motorbikes were ridden into what is now Wilderness back in the day. The Tote Goat was a minibike with a 4 HP motor manufactured outside Leavenworth and designed for local trails into the high country- as related by an old-timer who had a job there welding them together. Some old timers around here have great stories about riding small trailbikes to high lakes, etc. It is hard to imagine in this day and age that this was done.

The current reality is that we have legitimate uses that are incompatible. Three of us got first tracks in January down a slope in an area open to snowmobiles. At the bottom we met fourteen snowmobile riders, mostly middle aged and into their 60s. We enjoyed chatting, like other snowmobile riders they were just normal good folks. They were after powder, they had an equal right to it. We took 45 minutes to walk up the deep powder, but it was made a bit easier as the fourteen riders packed it and enjoyed lapping it up and down on either side of us. They were just having fun, we met them again on top and chatted. But it is daunting to have that much mass and horsepower zipping up and down the powder slope that you are climbing. I think they were friendly and meant nothing ill toward us, but it was daunting to be a pedestrian in that traffic, and I do not believe that a rider realizes the effect when passing a skier.

We need USFS Management of the limited resource- powder snow and open slopes. We need USFS Management of incompatible winter recreational uses.