TAY Atmosphere

Most of you won't read this post because it contains no pictures. And alot of words. But it does have a smiley face.

I originally started lurking and reading posts on TAY to learn, then to meet people, then to show off my skiing prowess. Being quickly humbled in that respect, I now post to share the excitement of good snow, the thrill of gravity, new personal milestones, and what I think are funny occurrences with friends in the mountains.

I've only been publicly flamed once, early on, when I crowed about stumbling upon somebody else's skin track and private stash. Even then I mainly wanted to share the joy, but now I understand their protective jealousy better. These days I'm more careful and even a little jealous of a couple of "my spots". When I post a trip report now, it's still to show off a little, but not for any of you - who know how slow I ski. I write them up in TAY because I want to post a link or email it to my family and non skiing friends so they know I'm still the crazy "skis in the rain guy", or "my dad who skis all year long", or the "nut carrying his skis on a hot dry dusty trail".

So, I think Scotty is a hilarious non-sequitar many times. I covet the time he spends browsing the web to pull in nuggets for us, such as the female version of the pee bottle, his Star Trek pictures (or was that Brit), The Royalty Coronation picture awhile back (or was that Joe)... It's those kinds of things, extracurricular to skiing, that broaden a community. I'm not going to go all Amar on him and set up a graph of his comments, but I'm pretty sure his big issues are personal freedom and responsibility, and he'll argue in favor till the glaciers retreat. And if you're on the opposite side of the couloir on his pet issues, get ready for a ski cut down the middle from him. But if you want to laugh at odd mountaineering inventions, discuss the lightest and best safety gear, or who has the most skis, then he's your man. If you want to climb high, smoke filterless, and ski till your legs shake, he's your man. If you want him to drive hours and hours through the dawn - his company car is the way to go.

As to other long random tracks in which people get really up in each other's grills - I'm too ADHD to really focus in on them, so they don't bother me too much. I would like to keep the swearing to a minimum, not because my kids frequent the site, but mainly because it seems like a lazy way to express enthusiasm. And there are ladies present. But I'll never call you on it.

Here are 2 of my 7 reasons to ski cautiously.

I lurk far more than I post.  Nonetheless, I'll share my perspective.

I'm not particularly old, nor am I particularly wise.  That said, the one thing I've learned in life is that I'm unlikely to regret having been too nice to people.  I try to let that philosophy guide my actions.  In practice that means I do my best to give others the benefit of the doubt and help them instead of criticizing or shaming.  I don't always succeed, but I try.

I witness enough sniping, criticism and petty argument at work.  I look forward to reading TAY in the evenings to get away from all that.  Posts like this bring me joy (gotta hang with those Famous Internet Skiers sometime).

www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=18863.0

Threads like this (where we are kind of short with a new user) make me sad.

www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...32.msg82627#msg82627

That said, I'm a realist and I understand that we all have our own beliefs.  Life has left some with axes to grind and few other venues in which to grind them.  In some cases that venue becomes TAY.

I appreciate Marcus' measured moderation.  It's a thankless, unending job.  Any website of significant scale ultimately resorts to some form of community moderation (eg. reviews on Amazon, comments on Slashdot, articles on Reddit or Digg) where the community holds itself accountable.  For a site the size of TAY that type of solution is probably overkill nor do we have the resources necessary to implement such a solution.

At the risk of digressing, if you've got ten minutes to spare there is a lot of wisdom in this video.



Some of the key takeaways: if you want others to change use humor instead of criticism or shame; be joyful; invite others to join; cranky people provide social cover for other people to be cranky.

Threads like this (where we are kind of short with a new user) make me sad.

www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...32.msg82627#msg82627

Thanks for taking time to post your sample jj.

To me I read that totally different and if it were me I would think...Oh, I should try the search function first then frame my question more effectively before I ask. The poor treatment i read is equal to a beating with 3 peacock feathers.
So everyone has a different take on what is harsh.

my impression of TAY is that of a 'NPR type entertainment' (excellent comparison Pete A):

It's nice when I'm alone, like NPR.

Like NPR, TAY is not loud or screaming, "look at me!" like some radio stations or websites.

It's got a great local feel but keeps me in touch with other regions like NPR.

It's like the internet equivalent to AM broadcasting with technology (all good, but jason should be able to post more 'banger' TR's)

my personal impression is that this should not be a TGR. this website has helped me observe and learn many things about backcountry skiing- i like to think of it as if most of the information shared here is like a good article from NPR. I give it credibility to an extent that i wouldn't at some other ski sites or something.

my impression is that this community is warm and well receiving of folks anxious to tour or learn. there are a few threads (more and more) that trend negatively and i think that it will happen enviably with newer users/people really bored. I think that you are expected to know the 'climate of TAY conversation' because you've been posting for x amount of years. I think you should be moderated to stay positive if you are an experienced poster/contributer. you're accountable to maintain the 'climate' for others to feel when they become new users. otherwise, 15 new people join a week with the impression that this is a looser and more TGR type of forum to banter on in. then we can't have these types of threads where Marcus wants to hear feedback!

other impressions:

i think that this forum is past the point of sharing stashes- it's okay- lots of people read this site, they understand newbie tips: Search the ooooooooooold TR's

i'd vote for more photo's as long as it doesn't cost $ for anyone to host, join, yada yada.

all this being said- thank you marcus and crew.

Just wanted to chime in that I think this a great site. I've learned a lot here and hope it continues to carve its own niche. I think some of the issues that arise are from posts that are trolls, written simply to provoke an emotional response. This is pretty common anywhere, but not feeding the trolls is an effective way to deal with these.

The job of a moderator seems difficult, but it shouldn't really have to be. Just as being a bouncer is actually a pretty quiet job at a bar where the patrons are cool and respect each other. In my opinion, Marcus and Ron do good jobs at it, especially considering its a volunteer gig.

Agreed on the general goodness of the moderation.

jj - thanks for that video link. It's a fun to watch. If you have constructive thoughts on how to use humor in the context of TAY and encouraging folks  to lay off the personal attacks and bullying (to be clear, the relatively small minority who sometimes veer this way), I'd love to hear what your'e thinking. Humor can clearly works well for things like filling the coffee pot or selling a new product or a vision to a team. There are other sorts of behavior changes that seemed to require other sorts of stimulus. E.g. look back at the "broken windows theory" link Lowell provided. The history of how NYC reduced crime is very interesting. Look at the history of desegregation and equal rights in America. I'm not trying to equate folks' concerns about "TAY atmosphere" to these far more serious situations, but rather simply pointing out that some types of change require more than just humor.

I must admit that I'm on the fence about the degree to which some minor tweaks in moderation might change the situation for what I consider to be "the better," or if we'll slide down a slippery slope toward some sort of "worse." The law of unintended consequences weighs heavy here.

I don't, however, buy the "those overly sensitive folks who are backing off their participation on the forum should just buck up/grow up/etc." line. So what if there are other sites where all the community members are "able to take some personal jabbing from time to time?" All this proves to me is that if left unchecked, personal attacks will drive away the folks who can't stand them, and you'll end up with a more homogenous and exclusive site. You can search the web for discussions of "online civility" and you'll see a recurring theme - that where personal attacks are allowed, the participants self-select and the "thin skinned" folks bow out. Echo chamber. All the exhortations to "buck up" aren't going to change the picture. And for those who are hiding behind the notion that any argument will drive these folks away - give it a test! Try being as argumentative as ever, but discipline yourself to avoid going personal. Don't take your "right" to be petty and mean so seriously!

Just because the other kids are doing it doesn't mean we should (TT, CC, TGR, comments on newspaper stories, etc.). Part of being a fully developed adult is having self control - the ability to check one's behavior when it is non-productive. I'd ask the folks who want to hold hard onto the "right" to play hard here whether they feel OK about disenfranchising other community members? If so, perhaps you should carry on. Will avoiding "attacking the person instead of just the ideas" make participating here so pointless that you'll be the one to bail? Does it really need to come down to that? Just something to think about.

To those of you who lean toward the POV expressed by folks like Lowell, Mad Dog, and me, find your own way to speak up, whether in public here or in PMs to folks for whom you might be able to suggest a more constructive approach to discussion and debate. Take up Tangerine's challenge:

Why do the rest of you let it happen? And, where is the respect for each other that we should all demonstrate? Showing civility is not being faux-positive, or superficial, or even passive-agressive. We are a community of backcountry skiers, and we should feel and show respect for each other, period.

And Tangerine (and other "mostly lurkers") - you don't need to let it happen either! Come join us as an active and respectful member of the community!

Perhaps then we can continue with the relatively "light touch" moderation we've seen to-date, no one will feel like their liberty is being reduced, and the moderators can get on with their day jobs.