TAY Atmosphere

would there be any sense to possibly adding some new forums to TAY to sort out the traffic?  TGR has 'the padded room'  ...not suggesting TAY should have something as potentially offensive and off-topic as that place, but what about a forum where lively banter can get exceeding lively?  or on the other side of the coin, have a forum similar to cascadeclimbers.com 'newbies' forum, where folks can ask the most bone-headed questions without fear of being stung?    anyways...just a passing thought….might make it easier for folks who don’t want to see rants to be able to avoid them entirely.

I think Charles was able to rule TAY with somewhat of an iron fist because the number of folks utilizing the site way back when was relatively small, the majority all got along just fine, and it wasn’t an overwhelming task for Charles to swoop in and ban folks who violated the terms of use…heck, Charles even scolded me once and threatened banishment many years ago when I made a smartass remark.  At some point the number of users gets to be too big for the moderators to keep such a tight grip on the site and it really becomes whatever the users make of it….and it seems like Marcus’ willingness to moderate in a more limited amount has allowed the users to have more pull in where this site is headed.

I enjoy that TAY is more like the ‘NPR’ of skiing sites…a little more factual, plain, and gentle than the louder sites like TGR…but I probably spend just as much time on TGR because I enjoy it for pure multimedia entertainment  and the larger knowledge pool there when asking questions about gear.   I would like the vibe in TAY to stay the way that it has been (or used to be), but as it grows in popularity, that seems less and less likely...hopefully TAY can adapt and keep its core vibe that we all enjoy so much.

Regarding photos… I hope the photo and video stuff catches up with the times…while I don’t like a TR that’s nothing but 30 poorly taken images, there are a lot of very talented photographers whos images I’d like to see here in their TR’s…having to look elsewhere on the web for Jason Hummel’s, JimD’s, and LeeLau’s awesome pictures is an unfortunate result of these now rather old school limits.

Finally… I am very grateful to Charles for starting this site and for Marcus committing so much time and energy into keeping this going…regardless of TAY’s quirks, this place is an incredible resource for the sport we are all so passionate about.

I enjoy that TAY is more like the ‘NPR’ of skiing sites…

Love this, and I love NPR.

IMHO, and very H it is, it seems by reading some of these comments that there are some folks here who take themselves WAY too seriously, and don't know how to deal with it when someone gives them a little shit. If you don't like it don't read it, and if you can't take a little crap, make sure you don't attract it.

If I post something stupid, feel free to tell me I am an idiot. Just be sure to tell me why you think so. If a newcomer posts something stupid, I would hope the reply could be phrased in such a way that they would not decide to never come back. Some people can handle criticism better than others. I don't see why there shouldn't be one site that is welcoming and a little forgiving of ignorance.

I rarely lurk or post, although I do a fair amount of bc skiing with husband and friends. What I have noticed on TAY over the past year or so is the development of a tone of negativity, and also what may be the evolution of a "tyranny of the minority."

Why do the rest of you let it happen? And, where is the respect for each other that we should all demonstrate? Showing civility is not being faux-positive, or superficial, or even passive-agressive. We are a community of backcountry skiers, and we should feel and show respect for each other, period.

My husband and I joined TAY in 2003 because it was an information-rich blog that NWAC actually obtained avalanche intelligence from; NWAC still references TAY reports and evidence of snowpack conditions in their avalanche bulletins.

I hope you will stay on, Lowell. I have enjoyed your trip reports and your history and I've learned a lot from your study of the region and your vast experience. I hope everybody who wants to post trip reports, share beta, intel on snow conditions, boast of wonderful or ridiculous, scary or brave or silly or easy, or whatever - backcountry ski experiences will continue to do so.

I've been posting on the internet since the 1980s. Rudeness isn't going to drive me away. I've probably seen worse behavior than anything TAY or TGR will ever dish up. (For example, there was the guy on rec.skiing.alpine who was ultimately banned from the Usenet by a court order. That case involved death threats as I recall.) I just think TAY can do better. It has done better, for many years now.

It's interesting that there is a growing contingent here that thinks people who prefer civility should just suck it up and get over it. So much for the meek inheriting the world...

A couple years ago I encountered the following post by Jason Kottke in one of my blog wanderings. I can't remember whether I've posted it on TAY before, but this seems like an appropriate time. According to Kottke's website , his posts are covered by the Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Creative Commons license . So I've copied this one in its entirety and am reposting it under the same terms.

[size=12pt]Does the broken windows theory hold online?[/size]

The Economist reports that experimental tests of the controversial "broken windows theory" of social behavior indicate that the theory is correct.

"The most dramatic result, though, was the one that showed a doubling in the number of people who were prepared to steal in a condition of disorder. In this case an envelope with a EUR5 ($6) note inside (and the note clearly visible through the address window) was left sticking out of a post box. In a condition of order, 13% of those passing took the envelope (instead of leaving it or pushing it into the box). But if the post box was covered in graffiti, 27% did. Even if the post box had no graffiti on it, but the area around it was littered with paper, orange peel, cigarette butts and empty cans, 25% still took the envelope."

Here's the 1982 Atlantic article in which the theory was first discussed in a popular forum. (Great article, BTW.)

"At the community level, disorder and crime are usually inextricably linked, in a kind of developmental sequence. Social psychologists and police officers tend to agree that if a window in a building is broken and is left unrepaired, all the rest of the windows will soon be broken. This is as true in nice neighborhoods as in rundown ones. Window-breaking does not necessarily occur on a large scale because some areas are inhabited by determined window-breakers whereas others are populated by window-lovers; rather, one unrepaired broken window is a signal that no one cares, and so breaking more windows costs nothing."

Reading these articles, I wondered: how does the broken windows theory apply to online spaces? Perhaps like so:

Much of the tone of discourse online is governed by the level of moderation and to what extent people are encouraged to "own" their words. When forums, message boards, and blog comment threads with more than a handful of participants are unmoderated, bad behavior follows. The appearance of one troll encourages others. Undeleted hateful or ad hominem comments are an indication that that sort of thing is allowable behavior and encourages more of the same. Those commenters who are normally respectable participants are emboldened by the uptick in bad behavior and misbehave themselves. More likely, they're discouraged from helping with the community moderation process of keeping their peers in line with social pressure. Or they stop visiting the site altogether.

Unchecked comment spam signals that the owner/moderator of the forum or blog isn't paying attention, stimulating further improper conduct. Anonymity provides commenters with immunity from being associated with their speech and actions, making the whole situation worse...how does the community punish or police someone they don't know? Very quickly, the situation is out of control and your message board is the online equivalent of South Central Los Angeles in the 1980s, inhabited by roving gangs armed with hate speech, fueled by the need for attention, making things difficult for those who wish to carry on useful conversations.

But what about a site's physical appearance? Does the aesthetic appearance of a blog affect what's written by the site's commenters? My sense is that the establishment of social norms through moderation, both by site owners and by the community itself, has much more of an impact on the behavior of commenters than the visual design of a site but aesthetics does factor in somewhat. Perhaps the poor application of a default MT or Wordpress template signals a lack of care or attention on the part of the blog's owner, leading readers to think they can get away with something. Poorly designed advertising or too many ads littered about a site could result in readers feeling disrespected and less likely to participate civilly or respond to moderation. Messageboard software is routinely ugly; does that contribute to the often uncivil tone found on web forums?

By Jason Kottke  •  Dec 1, 2008 at 12:44 pm

The value I look for in choosing to contribute trip reports to an on-line forum such as this is positive feedback and collaboration from a larger audience than my immediate peers. I also enjoy the information made available from other trip reports on local knowledge especially in other regions I would like to someday tour in. Without this forum, I would not be as aware of new places, safety topics and stoke to get out there beyond my inner circle of friends.

I enjoy TAY for reasons already mentioned. You can moderate the negative all you want, but I don't see much you can do about it if that is the way the current players want to be like. I just decided to take any negative with a grain of salt. After following this thread so far, I've just decided I can only participate the way I would like TAY to be... a positive community of backcountry skiers.

this is an internet forum, where being rude while hiding behind your avatar is easy... if some one wants to throw rudeness around it only shows their maturity to the community, in the end they lose respect of the community. I'm not worried

I'm still not posting my secrete stashes...