WMC Update 2012

WMC: ... when we get to Wilderness we find great skiing, but the fact that snowmobiles are there with the noise and intrusion transforms the Wilderness into something else. Wilderness is created by Federal Law, like it or not, with strict regulations to manage it. Are we a nation of Laws or shall we behave as some third world nation that enforces Law only when easy or convenient and so as not to anger any significant interest group?

I have spoken to many USFS officials and have NOT found ONE that is saying that the WHOLESALE poaching that YOU are stating happens... actually IS happening.

If this is anything more than just posturing and hyper-inflation of SMALL or INFREQUENT intrusions into wilderness areas by excluded parties, which could be non intentional ... Then I invite you to provide that information which is verifiable.

And what I mean by that is actual USFS reports or the name of a USFS official that will go on record to state that this WHOLESALE intrusion, YOU are claiming, exists.

Until you bring this information forward, please refrain from making these unsubstantiated claims, which I believe are, to coin a word, Veiled attempts to generate momentum for YOUR cause based on an inaccurate presentation.

Again... Make sure that you present a BODY of information that will substantiate a WHOLESALE intrusion as you have presented here.

There is enough mud-slinging and inflammatory posturing in the national political debates lately... Lets not repeat it here.

I do not operate in ANY designated non-motorized areas and work hard to promote understanding and cooperation amongst people in both of my favorite Backcountry sports... Both Non-motor and Motorzed.

I actively monitor the Wilderness boundaries in the areas I ride (both on skinz and snowmobile) for unauthorized MV use , and help to educate the people to what those boundaries are.

I HAVE seen snowmobile tracks go into a Wilderness area that I later found were from SAR personnel working with the USFS to recover an avalanche injured skier.

I also support programs that are involved in the marking of Wilderness boundaries...Does WMC participate in or support any such programs?

I have spoken to many USFS officials and have NOT found ONE that is saying that the WHOLESALE poaching that YOU are stating happens... actually IS happening.

If this is anything more than just posturing and hyper-inflation of SMALL or INFREQUENT intrusions into wilderness areas by excluded parties, which could be non intentional ... Then I invite you to provide that information which is verifiable.

And what I mean by that is actual USFS reports or the name of a USFS official that will go on record to state that this WHOLESALE intrusion, YOU are claiming, exists.

Until you bring this information forward, please refrain from making these unsubstantiated claims, which I believe are, to coin a word, Veiled attempts to generate momentum for YOUR cause based on an inaccurate presentation.

Again... Make sure that you present a BODY of information that will substantiate a WHOLESALE intrusion as you have presented here.

There is enough mud-slinging and inflammatory posturing in the national political debates lately... Lets not repeat it here.

I do not operate in ANY designated non-motorized areas and work hard to promote understanding and cooperation amongst people in both of my favorite Backcountry sports... Both Non-motor and Motorzed.

I actively monitor the Wilderness boundaries in the areas I ride (both on skinz and snowmobile) for unauthorized MV use , and help to educate the people to what those boundaries are.

I HAVE seen snowmobile tracks go into a Wilderness area that I later found were from SAR personnel working with the USFS to recover an avalanche injured skier.

I also support programs that are involved in the marking of Wilderness boundaries...Does WMC participate in or support any such programs?

You are late to the discussion so there is a lot here that you have not read- maybe you should. Several of my friends have been with me on skitours on the Teanaway crest. Lately, we see no snowmobiles in the Voluntary Closure, but one day saw seven snowmobiles then in the Wilderness from our summit that day.

Just today I noticed statements from back in 2004 on the Forest Plan website that talk about the snowmobile Wilderness intrusion, consideration of non-motorized areas, other interesting comments and documents. Check it out here-

www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/forest-plan/

Aaron,

I actually CAN see where you might take this perspective. Please read below, and reply with your comments.... it may help you to see the whole picture... it may help ME to see the whole picture.

I believe that in his myopic fervor to present his point of view, WMC is "playing both sides against the middle" and if the pragmatic, and non-extremist views on both sides are presented... ALL users of the areas presented will benefit.

aaron_wright; Suggesting that there is some back door deal making is uncalled for.

It was actually WMC that stated that there were "public meetings"... Yammidog and others are simply bringing to the fore the point that none of these public meetings are known.

If this was a "drop in" discussion ... or a phone call.... well that cannot be construed as a "public meeting" and should not be presented as such.

If it was indeed a "public meeting" please indicate the forum and date/time in the presentation to avoid confusion... and any conclusions to be made in this dearth of information.

On the SnoWest forums, where WMC is participating the following exchange was presented... with no answer....

THIS is where the propagation, by WMC through non responsiveness, of "clandestine" rumors was generated.

Originally Posted by WMC
USFS is in a Planning process to determine where on the Forest outside Wilderness should be designated for non-motorized and which should be for snowmobile use.

Oregongirl: Is this an active Planning process? I wasn't aware that any of the Washington forests, outside of The Blues were in an active comment period.

There was no reply this question in the MANY posts that WMC made following Oregongirls question.

Aaron,

I actually CAN see where you might take this perspective. Please read below, and reply with your comments....  it may help you to see the whole picture... it may help ME to see the whole picture.

I believe that in his myopic fervor to present his point of view, WMC is "playing both sides against the middle" and if the pragmatic, and non-extremist views on both sides are presented... ALL users of the areas presented will benefit.

It was actually WMC that stated that there were "public meetings"... Yammidog and others are simply bringing to the fore the point that none of these public meetings are known.

If this was a "drop in" discussion ... or a phone call.... well that cannot be construed as a "public meeting" and should not be presented as such.

If it was indeed a "public meeting" please indicate the forum and date/time in the presentation to avoid confusion... and any conclusions to be made in this dearth of information.

On the SnoWest forums, where WMC is participating the following exchange was presented... with no answer....

THIS is where the propagation, by WMC through non responsiveness, of "clandestine" rumors was generated.

There was no reply this question in the MANY posts that WMC made following Oregongirls question.

Now you are simply stating unsupported rants. Try to read what has been stated, of course you will use it for your purpose- fine, but try to do that from what was stated not from excited mistatement. Please take the time to read before haranguing and bolding your text.

You are late to the discussion so there is a lot here that you have not read- maybe you should. Several of my friends have been with me on skitours on the Teanaway crest. Lately, we see no snowmobiles in the Voluntary Closure, but one day saw seven snowmobiles then in the Wilderness from our summit that day.

Just today I noticed statements from back in 2004 on the Forest Plan website that talk about the snowmobile Wilderness intrusion, consideration of non-motorized areas, other interesting comments and documents. Check it out here-

www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/forest-plan/

Repetative, but I would donate to fund enforcement. Not one person has condoned such actions as acceptable.

mountainhorseIf this is anything more than just posturing and hyper-inflation of SMALL or INFREQUENT intrusions into wilderness areas by excluded parties, which could be non intentional ... Then I invite you to provide that information which is verifiable.

Ruffryder
While the amount of incursions seem to be over inflated, the intentions by the ones riding in the wilderness are most definitely on purpose. It has been reported that a group of snowmobilers from Wenatchee are the ones to blame for most of these incursions.  They know what they are doing and don't care.  Everyone I ride with are very cognoscente of the wilderness boundaries and stay out of them. There is no need to ride wilderness.

mountainhorseAnd what I mean by that is actual USFS reports or the name of a USFS official that will go on record to state that this WHOLESALE intrusion, YOU are claiming, exists.

Ruffryder
It does happen, it does exist.  I have seen it first hand in some of the areas I ride in, and many here know about it's existence as well.  Though the volume and amount of these incursions from comments made by the WMC seems to indicate that it happens all the time, all over the place, that seems to be unsubstantiated.  Unfortunately, snowmobile tracks last till the next snowfall so determining the amount and frequency is difficult at best.

mountainhorseUntil you bring this information forward, please refrain from making these unsubstantiated claims, which I believe are, to coin a word, Veiled attempts to generate momentum for YOUR cause based on an inaccurate presentation.

 

Ruffryder
The presentation might be inaccurate by the amount of intrusion represented, but the intrusions DO happen.  It is unfortunate and it is something that this snowmobiling community is taking VERY SERIOUSLY.

mountainhorseI also support programs that are involved in the marking of Wilderness boundaries...Does WMC participate in or support any such programs?

Ruffryder
Good question..

Thank you Ruffryder for that clear and accurate presentation of the "few rotten apples" above.

quote WMC You are late to the discussion so there is a lot here that you have not read- maybe you should. Several of my friends have been with me on skitours on the Teanaway crest. Lately, we see no snowmobiles in the Voluntary Closure, but one day saw seven snowmobiles then in the Wilderness from our summit that day.

Just today I noticed statements from back in 2004 on the Forest Plan website that talk about the snowmobile Wilderness intrusion, consideration of non-motorized areas, other interesting comments and documents. Check it out here-

www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/forest-plan/

I HAVE read what you quote above...

I see that YOU make claims.

Also... ONE day does not a "wholesale intrusion" make...

I have also read the 2004 report you quote... It does NOT mention the Wholesale intrusion you present... not does it indicate the rendering of terrain useless for skiers or other non-motor users or presence of snowmobiliers during their observation of TRACKS  (the noise of snowmobiles you indicated)...

The report reflects more of what Ruffryder presents... "a few rotten apples"

The same group that snowmbilers should work with the USFS to expose...and make that cooperation and exposure public for all to see.

There is no need for people to break the law to enojoy snowmobiling and sled in areas that are available to non-motor users LEGALLY.

There is a need however for snowmobilers to continue to fight to retain lands they currently have access to and share them with multi-uses...

I do not condone NOR support the operation of motorized vehicles into Wilerness areas or other Designated "non-motorized" areas (whether voluntary or otherwise)

What I asked for ... you did not answer...

Please answer so that ALL involved in this discussion, both skier and snowmobiler alike can develop a more accurate, complete, picture and make their decisions, comments/recommendations based on this.

Thank you.

EDIT: more accuate inof available... trying to be fair so I edited this.