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No skiing below Pebble Creek
- Scotsman
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17 years 6 months ago #182517
by Scotsman
Replied by Scotsman on topic Re: No skiing below Pebble Creek
Well thanks but many would rightfully argue with your comments.
I'm not sure skipole needs to offer any apology. I kinda admire his or her passion and at least he/she is putting it out there and not backing off. I respect that.
I'm more worried about the apathy of skiers who think the status quo will remain. Look at this thread, it's all the usual suspects( with a few exceptions) . A few loonies venting on the internet is a far cry from an effective group to protect what we love.
I would be far more heartened if posters with more moderate views and diversity felt it necessary to join the conversation.
Why did the guide companies and their climbers get to use Paradise when it was closed to everybody else, because they have an organised voice with which to approach the NPS.
I'm afraid apathy will be our biggest downfall and when the Crystal boundary is closed and dropping to 410 a misdemeanor, the Paradise road closed in the winter,skiing banned at certain elevations at certain times of the year, Rangers ticketing people at Chinook for building kickers, the Slush Cup banned unless a commercial permit and environmental insurance is obtained, the Chutefest at Sunrise and grilling homewreckers in the parking lot after dropping Fear Factor a thing of the past, we'll regret it.
I'm not sure skipole needs to offer any apology. I kinda admire his or her passion and at least he/she is putting it out there and not backing off. I respect that.
I'm more worried about the apathy of skiers who think the status quo will remain. Look at this thread, it's all the usual suspects( with a few exceptions) . A few loonies venting on the internet is a far cry from an effective group to protect what we love.
I would be far more heartened if posters with more moderate views and diversity felt it necessary to join the conversation.
Why did the guide companies and their climbers get to use Paradise when it was closed to everybody else, because they have an organised voice with which to approach the NPS.
I'm afraid apathy will be our biggest downfall and when the Crystal boundary is closed and dropping to 410 a misdemeanor, the Paradise road closed in the winter,skiing banned at certain elevations at certain times of the year, Rangers ticketing people at Chinook for building kickers, the Slush Cup banned unless a commercial permit and environmental insurance is obtained, the Chutefest at Sunrise and grilling homewreckers in the parking lot after dropping Fear Factor a thing of the past, we'll regret it.
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- RangerKevin
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17 years 6 months ago #182518
by RangerKevin
Replied by RangerKevin on topic Re: No skiing below Pebble Creek
Wow, this has been a lively discussion! Thank you to Jonathan Shefftz and Chris Willis for bringing it to my attention. I am the volunteer program manager at Mount Rainier National Park and am commenting in that capacity. I have forwarded the link to this discussion thread to Steve Klump and John Piastuck, wilderness rangers here at Rainier, as well as Mike Gauthier, lead climbing ranger, and Chuck Young, Chief Ranger, suggesting that one of them respond with clarification on what our ski regulations are, the reasons behind them, and the ways that they are intended to be communicated to park visitors. I've worked many years here as an interpretive ranger in the visitor centers, so I can tell you from personal experience how challenging it is, even as a full-time employee, to keep abreast of current conditions and to communicate that information to visitors.
The regulations about backcountry use are based on a desire to protect the natural resources while allowing for recreational use. Areas like Paradise have more regulations than places like Indian Henry's Hunting Ground, for example, which has much less intensive usage. Summer regulations tend to be stricter than winter ones both because of increased use and because this is when the fragile subalpine meadows are most exposed and vulnerable.
The majority of people who trample our meadows in the summer time by walking off-trail simply do not realize how much damage they are causing. They think of Paradise and Sunrise as "parks" in the same sense as urban parks, where you can walk anywhere and have picnics and throw frisbees. The reality is that subalpine meadows are more analagous to gardens. No one would walk out into the middle of their neighbor's flower garden and lay out a picnic blanket, and yet many people do so at Paradise. And whereas at home, you plant your garden after the snow melts away, at Paradise, it's already growing even as the snow disappears--if it didn't, it wouldn't have enough time during the short growing season to bloom and seed.
That's why we have trails at Paradise--to keep our millions of visitors safely off the meadows while still providing them with a means to enjoy them. It's a challenge in years like this one when the snow lingers well into the busy summer season, because people tend to follow the tracks established by others, even if those tracks melt out in locations other than the true trails. And then you have a new trail, eroded into a steep hillside in an inappropriate location.
The Park Service conducted research a number of years ago to determine the most effective ways of keeping people on the established trails. We tried various kinds of signs, ropes, and means of enforcement. The research demonstrated conclusively that far and away the most effective method was a human presence: both to enforce the regulations and to educate people about the reasons behind them.
We don't have enough rangers to patrol all of the trails all of the time--nor would that necessarily be considered by many to be the most effective use of our limited resources, even if many of us would love to be paid to hike and ski the trails all day!--and so the "Meadow Rover" program was born. Meadow Rovers are volunteers who have been trained to contact, assist, and educate visitors on the trails, and when necessary, to gently enforce the regulations. We provide them with a uniform shirt and cap, and with guide books and park radios that they can borrow from the visitor center. Some of them have busy lives with jobs and kids at swimming practice, and only come up once or twice a summer. Others are retired or just love coming up on the weekends and are here repeatedly throughout the summer. Like any enterprise, some are better at what they do than others. All of them, however, are driven by an honest desire to do what's right for the magnificent resources of Mount Rainier National Park. They want the meadows to survive to be as resplendent for their grandkids as they are today. They see Mount Rainier as a public resource that they are helping to care for. Most of the people they encounter on the trail recognize and appreciate the work they're doing in that role, but inevitably there are also conflicts. We try to train our Rovers to be open to other points of view, but also to be firm about the regulations and to make every effort to educate people about the reasons behind them.
I believe that this has been Skipole's intention, both on the trail and in this forum. Some of his (or her) comments could have been more tactful, and he could be more open about his identity, but he has also tried to do, here, exactly what he would do on the trail: to not just quote regulations but to explain the reasons behind them.
With a few exceptions, most of Skipole's comments have at least been accurate, even if other posters have have disagreed with the policies quoted or the agency behind them. The most significant correction I would make is to note that Sunrise was "closed" for a long time this year not to exclude skiers but because the heavy snowpack all over the park delayed us in getting the road and facilities shoveled out and dewinterized. (As so often happens, Sunrise was widely reported to be "closed" because the ROAD was closed as our plows and service vehicles were working on it; in fact, only the road was closed, and those who chose to ski or snowshoe in by other routes were welcome to do so.)
In the end, I do believe that the skiers, the Meadow Rover volunteers, and the park rangers all share the same goal: to protect the natural resources of Mount Rainier for the enjoyment of present and future generations. I think there's a lot we can do to work toward that goal together, and I welcome anyone who wants to contribute as a volunteer to check out our website at rainiervolunteers.blogspot.com.
The regulations about backcountry use are based on a desire to protect the natural resources while allowing for recreational use. Areas like Paradise have more regulations than places like Indian Henry's Hunting Ground, for example, which has much less intensive usage. Summer regulations tend to be stricter than winter ones both because of increased use and because this is when the fragile subalpine meadows are most exposed and vulnerable.
The majority of people who trample our meadows in the summer time by walking off-trail simply do not realize how much damage they are causing. They think of Paradise and Sunrise as "parks" in the same sense as urban parks, where you can walk anywhere and have picnics and throw frisbees. The reality is that subalpine meadows are more analagous to gardens. No one would walk out into the middle of their neighbor's flower garden and lay out a picnic blanket, and yet many people do so at Paradise. And whereas at home, you plant your garden after the snow melts away, at Paradise, it's already growing even as the snow disappears--if it didn't, it wouldn't have enough time during the short growing season to bloom and seed.
That's why we have trails at Paradise--to keep our millions of visitors safely off the meadows while still providing them with a means to enjoy them. It's a challenge in years like this one when the snow lingers well into the busy summer season, because people tend to follow the tracks established by others, even if those tracks melt out in locations other than the true trails. And then you have a new trail, eroded into a steep hillside in an inappropriate location.
The Park Service conducted research a number of years ago to determine the most effective ways of keeping people on the established trails. We tried various kinds of signs, ropes, and means of enforcement. The research demonstrated conclusively that far and away the most effective method was a human presence: both to enforce the regulations and to educate people about the reasons behind them.
We don't have enough rangers to patrol all of the trails all of the time--nor would that necessarily be considered by many to be the most effective use of our limited resources, even if many of us would love to be paid to hike and ski the trails all day!--and so the "Meadow Rover" program was born. Meadow Rovers are volunteers who have been trained to contact, assist, and educate visitors on the trails, and when necessary, to gently enforce the regulations. We provide them with a uniform shirt and cap, and with guide books and park radios that they can borrow from the visitor center. Some of them have busy lives with jobs and kids at swimming practice, and only come up once or twice a summer. Others are retired or just love coming up on the weekends and are here repeatedly throughout the summer. Like any enterprise, some are better at what they do than others. All of them, however, are driven by an honest desire to do what's right for the magnificent resources of Mount Rainier National Park. They want the meadows to survive to be as resplendent for their grandkids as they are today. They see Mount Rainier as a public resource that they are helping to care for. Most of the people they encounter on the trail recognize and appreciate the work they're doing in that role, but inevitably there are also conflicts. We try to train our Rovers to be open to other points of view, but also to be firm about the regulations and to make every effort to educate people about the reasons behind them.
I believe that this has been Skipole's intention, both on the trail and in this forum. Some of his (or her) comments could have been more tactful, and he could be more open about his identity, but he has also tried to do, here, exactly what he would do on the trail: to not just quote regulations but to explain the reasons behind them.
With a few exceptions, most of Skipole's comments have at least been accurate, even if other posters have have disagreed with the policies quoted or the agency behind them. The most significant correction I would make is to note that Sunrise was "closed" for a long time this year not to exclude skiers but because the heavy snowpack all over the park delayed us in getting the road and facilities shoveled out and dewinterized. (As so often happens, Sunrise was widely reported to be "closed" because the ROAD was closed as our plows and service vehicles were working on it; in fact, only the road was closed, and those who chose to ski or snowshoe in by other routes were welcome to do so.)
In the end, I do believe that the skiers, the Meadow Rover volunteers, and the park rangers all share the same goal: to protect the natural resources of Mount Rainier for the enjoyment of present and future generations. I think there's a lot we can do to work toward that goal together, and I welcome anyone who wants to contribute as a volunteer to check out our website at rainiervolunteers.blogspot.com.
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- ron j
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17 years 6 months ago #182519
by ron j
Replied by ron j on topic Re: No skiing below Pebble Creek
Nicely done, RangerKevin,
I for one would like to thank you for taking the time to reach out and communicate with us.
Perhaps you might also give us the best place to go at the NPS when we feel we would like our voices heard? Maybe and email address?
Thanks again.
I for one would like to thank you for taking the time to reach out and communicate with us.
Perhaps you might also give us the best place to go at the NPS when we feel we would like our voices heard? Maybe and email address?
Thanks again.
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- David_Lowry
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17 years 6 months ago #182520
by David_Lowry
I don't think I can offer a more moderate view. I hope this group gets what they want.
As far as diversity, when I moved into dog driving and skijoring, I tried for years to be allowed access to the same winter roads open to 'bilers, all to no avail. I've given up on the NPS; short of moving to Alaska and trekking in Denali, I don't think I'll ever be able to run a team in a National Park.
Replied by David_Lowry on topic Re: No skiing below Pebble Creek
I would be far more heartened if posters with more moderate views and diversity felt it necessary to join the conversation.
I don't think I can offer a more moderate view. I hope this group gets what they want.
As far as diversity, when I moved into dog driving and skijoring, I tried for years to be allowed access to the same winter roads open to 'bilers, all to no avail. I've given up on the NPS; short of moving to Alaska and trekking in Denali, I don't think I'll ever be able to run a team in a National Park.
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- Scotsman
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17 years 6 months ago - 17 years 6 months ago #182521
by Scotsman
Replied by Scotsman on topic Re: No skiing below Pebble Creek
Thanks RangerKevin.
I think most of us now understand the meadow stomping issue but what about the other issues such as
1) Crystal boundary
2) Paradise Road in the winter, will it stay open in the future. etc, etc.
3) Sunrise next year
4) people getting warned about building snow kickers at Chinook Pass.
Whom can we talk to or even better meet with to get updated on the NPS policies and intentions regarding these issues that are dear to our hearts.
Thanks for reaching out to us and even thanks to skipole for being a catalyst.
Chris Willis
I think most of us now understand the meadow stomping issue but what about the other issues such as
1) Crystal boundary
2) Paradise Road in the winter, will it stay open in the future. etc, etc.
3) Sunrise next year
4) people getting warned about building snow kickers at Chinook Pass.
Whom can we talk to or even better meet with to get updated on the NPS policies and intentions regarding these issues that are dear to our hearts.
Thanks for reaching out to us and even thanks to skipole for being a catalyst.
Chris Willis
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- Mike_Gauthier
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17 years 6 months ago #182522
by Mike_Gauthier
I snowboard; what's all the fuss is about. :
Replied by Mike_Gauthier on topic Re: No skiing below Pebble Creek
...I have forwarded the link to this discussion thread to...Mike Gauthier, lead climbing ranger.
I snowboard; what's all the fuss is about. :
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