No skiing below Pebble Creek

jdclimber hit the nail right on the head. Well said, sir! The National Parks are one of our country’s best ideas, but the National Park Service has become just another bloated, wasteful, arrogant, self-serving, out of touch federal agency.

I know from long personal experience that the NPS has a very high proportion of dedicated employees in the ranks; for many, it’s not just a job, it’s a religion. Obviously, the Parks are mismanaged, but the real management problem is that the Parks have been captured by Congress for it’s pork barrel re-election schemes. Rep. Dimwit will trumpet his vote against Interior operating budgets to the homefolks as ‘shrinking government’, but won’t hesitate to establish and lavishly fund ‘Dismal Seepage Historical Site’ in his district. It’s not surprising that a class of managers has evolved in response that emphasizes unnecessary development over real maintenance or improved access. It doesn’t help that they usually have to transfer to be promoted, and so leave just about the time they start to know half as much about their Parks as many of the rank and file, or even local visitors.

The new Paradise Visitor Center is a good example of unnecessary development, because it’s main justification is to replace the previous development fubar (Jackson VC). The primary reason the road has been plowed in winter since the 60’s is to deliver fuel oil to prevent snow from crushing the VC, not to provide access to the fantastic skiing. Assuming little is spent heating the new building, how many years of pro-rated fuel savings will it take to justify spending tens of millions on new construction? The high-priced landscape architects apparently didn’t spend much time at the site in winter, or they might not have chosen the deepest drift in the area, or located the large, steep roof so as to present an avalanche hazard to the public. I predict additional snow removal difficulties around the new VC and even more opening delays and bogus closures in future winters. Good examples of real maintenance ignored were the disgraceful spills of thousands of gallons of heating oil at Ohanapecosh and Narada Falls in recent years.

Speaking of real maintenance, it would be a lot easier to accept being told not to ski if more effort were made by the NPS to actually relocate the snowy cattle track above the trail. In the 70’s, with much smaller staff & budget, we daily packed soot up to darken & melt out desired routes and shoveled fresh snow on the off-trail sections. My experience, based on decades of subalpine trail restoration, is that the thousands of near misses by slightly off trail hikers are orders of magnitude more damaging to vegetation than a few random ski (or even boot) tracks. Surely a vibram boot sole breaks more woody stems and compacts or erodes more soil than a ski. Randy is correct that vegetative impacts are much reduced from previous decades, but the overwhelming majority of the ongoing resource problems around Paradise are caused by hikers, not skiers, and the NPS could do a much better job of managing the trail melt-out.. Many of the remaining damaged sections around Paradise, such as the Skyline trail between Pan Pt & Mazama Ridge, are mostly the result of management approved concession pack strings avoiding lingering snow patches throughout the 1950’s and 60’s.

acarey makes an excellent point about the vagueness of this policy. Is it just for the trail corridor to Muir, or am I supposed to boot across the Stevens Creek snowbridges or the lower Paradise Glacier crevasses at increased risk of breaking in just because I’m below some arbitrary point?

I certainly am not in a position to represent any "conscious decision" of the park.  However it is elementary that the park's concerns include preservation as well as the desires of user groups.

I  retain the prerogative to put my efforts where I want when I want and don't give a fig whether you approve.  And I don't have a desire to further narrow parochial interests at the expense of the bigger picture of preserving what makes a place so special. 

Backcountry skiing at MRNP has had a long history as has mountaineering and general visitor " sightseeing". Perhaps you should read some of Lowell Skoog's writing to discover the long history of skiing in the park. The 10th Mountain Division trained there before moving to Colorado.

The park has made great strides in accommodating climbers and minimizing their obvious environmental footprint( ever been to Muir on  a hot day and smelt the feces) and the high respect that the community has for Gator shows what can be done when there is communication between the groups. The communication between the mountaineering community and the NPS has been aided by the commercial guide companies who have an obvious stake in co-operation. Skiers do not possess such advocates.

Many backcountry skiers feel that the Park system is deliberately closing down our access, (crystal boundary closure, West side road, deliberate late opening of Sunrise, fears of Paradise road being closed in winter when the new VC is complete). We are historical stakeholders in the park and worthy of a voice in it's future and management not a narrow parochial special interest group.

Rather than effectively denying  access to areas such as Sunrise , the park should reach out to the skiing community to discuss the issues  and come up with solutions .

Not even I, who loathes the NPS, has argued with your original premise that vegetation can be damaged by skiers, just your crude officious delivery and evident air of superiority.

Last time you had a discussion about Sunrise on this discussion board, you chirped in and  told us all to stop whining and volunteer to dig out the toilets and help open it.

Seems pretty callous when you, as it evident by your statements above, knew that it was being deliberately kept closed so there would be no snow to ski on!!!

The new Paradise Visitor Center is a good example of unnecessary development, because it’s main justification is to replace the previous development fubar (Jackson VC).  The primary reason the road has been plowed in winter since the 60’s is to deliver fuel oil to prevent snow from crushing the VC, not to provide access to the fantastic skiing.  Assuming little is spent heating the new building, how many years of pro-rated fuel savings will it take to justify spending tens of millions on new construction? 

The crazy thing is that it looks like the new VC will actually save money in very few years -- I recall the construction budget was around $2.5 million -- but that the two years ago the annual heating/snow melt budget was around $0.5 million -- given the current increase in fuel oil costs cost should be recouped in just a few years.

My big concern is that when the park service no long must keep the road open through the winter -- congress will cut the budget and the road will be closed during the winter which would be sad.

"...the construction budget was $2.5 million."  Really?!  Scotsman, or anyone know how to document this cost?  I'd have guessed ten times that amount by the time the existing VC is demolished & paved, not to mention twenty miles of road damage from all the heavy trucks.  Heck they spent more than that remodeling the JVC not so many years ago...

Last time you had a discussion about Sunrise on this discussion board, you chirped in and told us all to stop whining and volunteer to dig out the toilets and help open it.

Seems pretty callous when you, as it evident by your statements above, knew that it was being deliberately kept closed so there would be no snow to ski on!!!

That is some nice work councelor Scotsman, forgot about that jab.
It's hard to believe that a group so unorganized could come up with such a diabolical plan.

We skiers/boarders have come a long way to the point where we are viewed as organized enough to come up with a consensus decision to stay off all budding flora. ??? and to think that an agreement treaty would give us our Sunrise skiing back, that is pretty absurd.
I think the same agreement should be made to the thousands of tourists that take their first step off the tour bus right into the Lupine meadows or the endless flock of Summer visitors from Seattle, Lubbock, Grand Rapids or Cleveland who rightfully wander carelessly up the 1st Burroughs trampling the last floral descendants of that last ice age to get a better glimpse of Rainier.
It does not matter if the trampling comes early Spring or late Summer, it is going to happen by humans or wildlife. To pin all the blame on the skiers is pretty coward and penalizing one interest group is a selfish abuse of power that needs to STOP NOW!
I have been in parts of the park that nary see a person, yet the terrain is zigzagged and scarred by the trampling of wildlife, what has been done to control the animals from destroying their own vegetation?
Or how about the countless biologist and botanists that go on their off trail treks in the park to do research? Certainly there could be a case that in their efforts to study that they are damaging the park? No, they are going to write reports that say there is evidence to support more research and concern for a certain cause, like skier damage to milk the system.
My God, I know it's bold to say but from my experiences the Park does all in its power to protect their image and jobs that can be enjoyed by it's caretakers rather than it's owners.

"...the construction budget was $2.5 million."  Really?!  Scotsman, or anyone know how to document this cost?  I'd have guessed ten times that amount by the time the existing VC is demolished & paved, not to mention twenty miles of road damage from all the heavy trucks.  Heck they spent more than that remodeling the JVC not so many years ago...

Freedom of Information act. Budgets and construction bids for Federal projects are public and any document can be requested if you invoke the FOI Act. They charge you for the research and copying and you have to be fairly specific and have much patience and perserverance. Always amazing what can be found with advanced googling though. I thought I heard the building and renovation of the Paradise lodge was much higher but could be wrong.

If you call the NPS I'm sure they have a peson or department that would be able to tell you.

Love to invoke the FOI to get my hands on some internal documents/memos/emails that must discuss the long term planning regarding keeping the Paradise road open or closed during future winters. Like Rusty, I have grave fears for the future of Paradise winter skiing.There must be discussion papers, reports or anaysis regarding this issue.