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No skiing below Pebble Creek
- dkoelle
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One potential issue that seems legit: you know how when you are skiing down snowfields that "almost" connect and you are forced to either all-terrain ski, or even de-ski and hike a few feet, to link up between snowfields? In a very high use area, this could be harmful to fragile plants. Also, if viewed by hikers, this activity could set a bad precedent. So I guess I think the regulation is ridiculous if continuous skiing is available, or if the link-ups only involve trail, but perhaps has some merit to minimize off-trail contact of boots or skiis with dirt/rock/plants.
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- Scotsman
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I found the NPS plan for the park on-line and printed and started reading all 450 pages. It's a difficult read as it's laid out kinda funny but I started plowing though it. It talks about shuttle buses, west side road, paradise etc etc. It's all there.
Skiing is mentioned frequently and always coupled with snowshoeing and snowboarding. It is usually referred to as cross-country skiing and is ALWAYS talked about as a WINTER activity. There is even a paragraph where somebody proposes banning snowboarding as being inappropriate for the park but that is quickly discarded and there is no mention of skiing in the same context.
That's when it struck me that neither the NPS or ourselves could have imagined the growth and direction the sport we call backcountry skiing has developed and how we have even promoted it as a YEAR ROUND activity. No wonder conflict exists. Neither we nor the NPs has caught up how our sport has developed from the concept of winter cross-country skiing to year round back-country and ski mountaineering on high performance technical gear.
This prompted me to think about what I do ,and my code of ethics. The question I asked myself was this. It's spring, Nisqually chute has corn. There is no snow until above Pan point. I hike on the trail carrying skis to Pebble Creek. I skin to the top of the chute, I ski the chute but o get back to Glacier Vista I have to hike through an area of sub-alpine flowers to get back to the Glacier Vista trail. Acceptable or not??? Here's another thought producer. Ten years from now, extreme sledding has become the passion. Hundreds of people converge on Paradise in the spring and summer. High performance sleds with steering mechanisms are on sale by Black Diamond and the sport is easy to learn. People are wandering all over the park dragging sleds to get to ribbons of snow. Acceptable or not????
Back-country skiers ( with exceptions of course ) behave differently from climbers. climbers will take the easy marked trails to permanent snow and then start their ascent. Skiers will leave the trial to go to a bowl or ribbon of skiable snow that climbers will normally never go to.
I guess I discovered that the issue for me is more complicated than I thought and I think both skiers and the NPS haven't caught up with the issues that year round and certainly extended season skiing is going to produce.
I am still deeply suspicious of other parts of the report especially the crystal boundary issue. It drones on about how development at Crystal will promote more skiers being visible on the ridge lines and skiing into the park and destroying the visitors wilderness experience. It then goes on to say that in winter there is nobody out there as the roads are all closed. I still suspect it has something to do with the park residences in that area or else a political play to get the Forest Service to do a land swap.
That being said, I recommend you read it. It's making me think about some of my past positions.
I would also like to say I was pretty hard on Skipole and although I still have issues with his/her tone and delivery, I think it takes cojones to do what he/she did in posting what he/she thought important and take the knocks that followed and I admire that.
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- Larry_Trotter
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Mt. Rainer Administrative History:
www.nps.gov/archive/mora/adhi/adhit.htm
Especially: XIV. THE PROBLEM OF WINTER USE
[size=10pt]....In the decade and a half following World War II, the NPS wrestled with the problem of winter use at Mount Rainier National Park. The heart of the problem was this: to what extent should skiers shape the physical development and budget priorities of the national park? The problem concerned several other national parks as well--notably the California parks--but nowhere was the situation more vexing than at Mount Rainier..... [/size]
They felt that they could get out of the ski business with the development of ski resorts in Washington. Lots of mention of cross country skiers... it seems they still don't understand Alpine Touring.... (my opinion)
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- alpentalcorey
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Ultimately instead of complaining about over-regulation I could easily choose to go to a less-regulated area or accept the rules. There's no argument I can make that fragile meadows should be trampled.
Maybe it was the anonymity that bothered me? In any case skipole I am sorry.
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- Gary Vogt
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His list of concerns is a great starting point, but I think the emphasis regarding Paradise should be on speeding up the ever-slower winter gate opening. If the Park Service could accomplish that, I think it would show they were serious about serving winter visitors better and calm fears of total winter closures.
During the world-record snow years of the early 70’s, I estimated that the average plowing time required was about one hour past 8AM for every six inches of new snow at Paradise. There were quite a few days, but never extended periods, when the road would not open. At that time the road crew was using mostly surplus plows and trucks from Bremerton that the Navy had given up on and the road foreman had the only four-wheel drive light vehicle in the Park. The Rangers drove 2WD GSA station wagons rigged as ambulances and chained-up just like the public.
In recent years, I’ve been forced to revise my estimates. Despite less snow, newer & more powerful equipment, and a fleet of SUVs that would make a Saudi prince blush, about one hour past 8 for every three inches of new snow seems the current norm, and non-openings and extended closures are much more common.
Since I’ve indulged myself in a number of criticisms of the National Park Service, I feel compelled to offer the following:
SOME SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVING PARADISE WINTER OPERATIONS
CONTINUE RECENT IMPROVEMENTS IN PHONE MESSAGE. For years, this was really frustrating because of no updates or updates that didn’t mention what day they were recorded. These problems have been corrected. Even the new estimated opening time is fairly reliable. Hats off to whoever was responsible. It would be convenient for us locals if the message could be updated when the Paradise gate actually opens. A real improvement would be to make the open/no open decision sooner, so that people could make alternate plans before wasting most of the day waiting for the gate. The weather phone message offers ‘current conditions’, but is really just a summary of the generally available forecast. Perhaps the standard script could refer callers to the webcams, or how hard is it to just update the weather conditions a few times a day? At least the recording no longer prattles on about the total snow amount compared to the previous year. More useful to those without web access would be the amount of new snow overnight & perhaps a wind summary, since they affect trip choice, trail breaking difficulty, time management, and avalanche hazard. I don’t understand why the current avalanche hazard is not on the recording each winter day.
START SNOW REMOVAL EARLIER on weekends and holidays. Model A’s kept the road plowed almost to Narada by working all night. Starting a couple hours earlier would give backcountry travelers more safety cushion on short winter days.
PARTIAL OPENINGS ON WEEKDAYS. In the seventies, the Paradise gate was opened when the lower (JVC) lot was cleared, unless there were too many cars waiting in Longmire. A volunteer (often me) would keep people away from the plows while the upper lot was finished. As long as the parking capacity is not exceeded, I don’t see why it can’t be SOP that the road is opened to Cougar Rock, Glacier Bridge, Narada and the lower Paradise lot as the plows reach them. All it would take is a few cones & barricades. It looks like some of the so-called Rangers could use a little exercise getting in out of their vehicles more often anyway.
COUNT VEHICLES AT THE ENTRANCE ON BUSY DAYS with late openings. Hold vehicles there until the Paradise gate opens when parking places in Longmire and the lower turnouts are full. Sooner or later, a TV crew is going to air news footage of the annual holiday gridlock semi-riot to the Park’s considerable embarrassment, or at least I hope so. Speaking of Longmire gridlock, why not have a red/green light on the museum and Inn (or even a semaphore signal) to show the gate status and reduce the cruising and premature lineups?
INSTALL A WINTER EMERGENCY PHONE AT NARADA comfort station. This could make a real difference in case of a Mazama or Tatoosh accident.
MARK THE DOWNHILL LANE WHEN THE CHAINUP LOCATION CHANGES. A simple portable sign: “End Chain Requirement” would save chains, tires, gas and the pavement.
USE THE GUIDED SNOWSHOE WALKS TO EDUCATE VISITORS about potential conflicts such as walking/webbing in XC ski tracks. At Olympic NP there are small, simple signs at the parking lot: “Skiers & snowshoers please make separate tracks”.
HAVE A CHILDREN’S SNOW PLAY AT COUGAR ROCK OR LONGMIRE CG. Why not store a heap of gravel before it snows or use the plows to build a small sliding hill so kids wouldn’t be so disappointed if Paradise couldn’t be opened? A lot of parents might appreciate not having to brave the drive to Paradise as well. Of course, this would require a couple portable toilets on a low trailer, but the Park should already have that setup. They could put them on the Westside Road in the summer or developed areas in an emergency.
LET STEVENS CANYON AND THE VALLEY ROAD MELT OUT NATURALLY. Or at least delay the premature plowing of recent years. Besides saving dozens of more trees from being snapped off by bulldozers, the Park could use the equipment time and money saved to open Cayuse and Sunrise sooner.
EXPLORE COOPERATIVE AGREEMENTS WITH THE STATE AND USFS to try to keep Skate Creek road open as much as possible in winter. Most of the road is lower than Longmire and is on the books as a future State highway. This would be a PR coup for the Park and a real boost for local businesses. With a shorter route to White Pass, snowplayers would have another option if the Park was unable to open Paradise and snowmobilers could better access their traditional terrain in the years of high snowline that seem to be in our future.
WHAT THE HEY; MIGHT AS WELL SHOOT FOR THE MOON…
Eliminate the NPS Regional Offices; retire the landscape architects, assistant superintendents, project coordinators, contracting officers and all the other paraphernalia of development. As Scotsman said, learn to deal with limited resources, especially when visitation has been declining since the 90’s. Use the savings to retain the seasonal backcountry rangers and trail crew normally cut first in budgetary hard times. There might even be enough left over to buy a couple more plows and add a trained avalanche specialist to the Park’s stable of scientists.
Please excuse this long post, but this is the most hopeful thread in my brief time on this site. Others must have better ideas; let’s hear them! Poor skipole was just trying to do his/her duty, but has done all of us a favor. Thanks.
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- ron j
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I agree with Ron that Scotsman would be the perfect Acting Spokesman until an advocacy group can get better organized. I was especially impressed at his restraint in not mentioning his higher duty on the weekend of the ‘Sunrise Snub’. We need someone who can call BS when necessary and who won’t be co-opted. Maybe he’d reconsider if I offered to help with the scut-work behind the scenes? Lodging in Ashford on powder weekends?
There you go, Scotty. Gary has already volunteered to help and even provide you with an "Ashford headquarters"; I will help you and I'll bet there is a plethora of other folks that would help as long as they didn't have to be point man. I wouldn't even be surprised if Skipole would help, considering your recent commendable, study/thought provoked, well crafted, even handed and apologetic post above (as long as you didn't continue to get her/his screen handle wrong
Besides, you're already "kind of" leading the charge as it is. The only thing left is for you and Gary to go sit down with the super (or his designee) and offer some suggestions.
Gary, GREAT suggestions!!
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