New Bullion Basin lift, upgrade to High Campbell..

Micah,

I grew up in Oregon and I have found that the Mt Hood resorts are MUCH less tolerant of touring activity than the ski resorts here in WA.  To CM's, Alpental's, and Mt. Baker's credit ( I am not very familiar with Steven's policies), they are very accommodating to the BC community.  CM will allow some uphill traffic in their boundaries and their ski patrol is encourages check-ins and discussion with them prior to touring.  It is a very different environment than say at mount hood meadows.

Orion

Agreed Orion. But I would point out that the Meadows (and Tline and Snowbowl) parking lots are snoparks while the WA resorts' lots are (to my knowledge) not. I think that is a better system anyhow, although I feel for folks that buy a season pass and then also have to buy a parking permit.

I'm reading this really interesting book "The Price of Altruism" that is an attack on the  conventional interpretation of evolution as "survival of the fittest". In population biology, an unconventional researcher by the name of George Price was able to show that it's not the fittest individual that survives, but the most cooperative consortium.

And coopretative consortiums actively support freeloaders.

So yes, there is some substance to the argument that the BC skiers are freeloading on the paying lift skiers since the road up to 4400 @ Crystal wouldn't exists without the ski area and the dollars the elitist lift skiers spend (or those that have parking passes ).

But that's part of what makes us work, what makes us succeed and what makes us human.

I'm not about to apologize for the snotty attitudes of other humans (and I'm not referring to JoeDa here since in my opinion, he's a fine human who I'd love to ski with more; it's just that I don't want to slow him down). I do apologize for attempting some levity if it's misunderstood.

But the amount of lift served skiing in the Puget Sound is dinky compared to other urban areas like SLC/Denver or even SF.

So here's some $ and time and love to make more BC skiing accessible and trying to see the advantages of thinking together rather than asserting differences.

I'll even try harder to not be offended because my ass is always last on the skintrack. I admit, I'm omniskisual.

So for you lift riders, what's your opinion of a triple for replacement of 6? Personally, I'd rather have a double and leave the density in the liftline instead on the hill.

And coopretative consortiums actively support freeloaders.

So yes, there is some substance to the argument that the BC skiers are freeloading on the paying lift skiers since the road up to 4400 @ Crystal wouldn't exists without the ski area and the dollars the elitist lift skiers spend (or those that have parking passes ).

What if the ski area said, OK we will give you parking for BC skiers. We will give you the upper C lot since it is closer to the hike to Bullion. I think that they should place 5 shovels at the entrance to the lot and say clear your own parking spots. Why should we pay fuel to have your lot cleared for you when you are not adding to the area? And when you get lost or injured who handles the problem?
It's pretty obvious that no BC skier would park in that lot. NOW, If they offered/sold a permit for $500 a season to clear the lot for them and tow violators. How many BC skiers would anyone guess would buy the permit? My guess is less than 5. If the BC skier is REALLY looking for the real outdoor experience, dig out your own parking spot for your rig. If that is not cool, then maybe you need to abide by the rules of those who are doing the digging before you show up.

Both of the above are only valid if Randy's assertion below is not true.

I'm pretty sure that terms of Crystal Mountain's special use permit don't allow it exclude the non-ticket buyers from accessing the land and use such facilities as the public restrooms.

In terms of access rights -- the land owner for the Crystal area is the USFS and it is they that determine the terms of the lease to the resort operator -- I suppose if CM wanted to they could have tried to get lease terms that would have allowed them have a gate/ticket booth at the turn off from Hwy-410 -- I would imagine that would been a lot more difficult -- probably would have required an outright sale of the land -- how much would that have cost ?

So the price that CM pays for having access to public land is allowing access to the public.

On a related note -- even ski areas that operate on private land may need to allow access to the non-paying public -- the most amusing example of this are the Summit ski areas located in Kittatas county (East, Central, West) -- Back in the '80s the county tried to levy an "admission tax" on the price of lift tickets -- the ski area fought back by insisting that the lift tickets were only for riding the lifts -- not for admission to the ski area.

So  while it might be possible to operate ski areas along the lines that Scotsman suggests -- requiring paid access to any area of the facility -- that isn't the way it has been done in Washington for a wide array of reasons.

Does anyone know if Crystal's Permit details are available to view on-line?  I've emailed the USDA BB project manager asking him, hopefully he will provide some insight.

edit to say: Joe, who is not following CM's rules? I get the feeling you think I and others are anti-ski resort. While I can only speak for myself, I can say that that is not the case. I am glad CM is there and am glad they seem to operate the resort with many users in mind. I just would rather they pursue resort expansion into other terrain that is not so heavily traveled by touring skiers AND I believe not paying skiers are not free-loaders; They are tax-payers accessing public land.

Orion

So the road would be there and plowed and maintained if Crystal Mountain wasn't there? Or George Prices proof is wrong?

Is there anyone out there who can pull off their identity hangups anhd really read and understand?

So the road would be there and plowed and maintained if Crystal Mountain wasn't there? Or George Prices proof is wrong?

Is there anyone out there who can pull off their identity hangups anhd really read and understand?

I'll go back to my parent's cabin on a FS lease. They plow the road in the winter, but they cannot restrict who uses that road.