Snomo in couloir

The discussion unfortunately has been usually derailed by tangential issues. Supporting freedom of speech would include good-faith discussion and creating an atmosphere where less-aggressive folks would feel comfortable commenting.

With all due respect, I don't think that lecturing folks on skin track threads and plastic bag laws is really aiming in the direction you appear to hope for things to proceed in this paragraph that I've quoted. Nor are accusations of namecalling when the namecalling is far from apparent ("you" is merely a very generic pronoun). If you want to rally folks, figure out how to develop a compelling and sticky message. Leaders don't whine that no one seems to be caring about their message...

I'm really not seeing the name calling that you're talking about, WMC.  For the most part, everyone here has been trying to discuss this in good faith, either here or in the other threads on the topic.

Absolutely correct lately here Marcus and good job. I was referring to the *many more* discussions other than TAY with snowmobile advocates. I added an EDIT to that post. Thanks.

Mr Oker,

With all due respect, it is a given that posts are subject to criticism. Many including mine, and others. Those were comparison points, do I need to draw a picture? Perhaps it was referring to the environmental footprint of snowmobile riding offroad in unroaded pristine high-elevation areas. The point was also being made that there are discussions of social conflict in the snowy backcountry that are discussed here on TAY. Did you really not get that? I think that nothing from WMC would be beyond your personal contempt and criticism based on your previous posts. Now you could just censor WMC apparently, Moderator.

How about some honest discussion of issues?

BUT WMC says he's got nothing against legal and responsible snowmobile use and has made the point numerous times about how he's got nothing against snowmobiles in general and has ridden many legal miles himself.
So sorry but maybe the message is confusing as the sentence you quote in your post above certainly seems a rant against snowmobiles IN GENERAL, by him.

We're confused, does he hate snowbiles or like snowmobiles or only like them in certain cases.
Are they trashing ALL the powder or just powder outside his secret stashes where he still enjoys a utopian powder experience in the heart of snowmo country.
At least you've made it clear you hate snowmobiles in previous threads.
I think that was Splitter's point in a previous post.. it seems to be a personal agenda .

Please quit making this personal and try to discuss issues. Yours appears to be a personal agenda indeed.

While some posts were added here, I was actually emailing back and forth with probably 60 folks about a letter just received from USFS. Sure, one guy is here posting for WMC, but this advocacy is involving many Organizations and thousands of individuals.

Yes, it is disappointing.

Thanks. Honest discussion would be nice. Lots of nit picking, little substantive discussion.

Truly strange the passion and comments of some who do not ski much or have not skied in the Wenatchee Mountains and have never ridden snowmobiles.

If the topic were discussed instead of the tangential nitpick that would be interesting.

BUT WMC says he's got nothing against legal and responsible snowmobile use and has made the point numerous times about how he's got nothing against snowmobiles in general and has ridden many legal miles himself.
So sorry but maybe the message is confusing as the sentence you quote in your post above certainly seems a rant against snowmobiles IN GENERAL, by him.

We're confused, does he hate snowbiles or like snowmobiles or only like them in certain cases.
Are they trashing ALL the powder or just powder outside his secret stashes where he still enjoys a utopian powder experience in the heart of snowmo country.
At least you've made it clear you hate snowmobiles in previous threads.
I think that was Splitter's point in a previous post.. it seems to be a personal agenda .

Some ideas posted here again:
With some collaboration it would be best to find win-win for all users and improved access for the majority of citizen Forest users. Collaboration is tough with one side- USFS default to snowmobile riding- getting it all already and then some Wilderness too and using the "all MINE" approach to negotiation. "I" would support many things to allow folks (including snowmobilers) to use the Forest, WMC is about getting a share of the Forest for use by non-motorized users. "I" and WMC have spent a lot of time giving our knowledge and experience to USFS personnel about Forest use in winter, aside from what we want.

Here is my idea to share if guys on the snomo side on snomo Forums (EDIT for clarification) would just quit name calling and saying "all MINE"- what of open for snomos to Longs, Van Epps, skiers/ non-motorized from Turnpike to the pass between Navaho/ Brothers. Then we could work together for management, try to get some yurts for skiers, a yurt near Longs for snomos, skiers, skiers on snomos. We could work together on a Sno Park at Beverly. The formal presence would help with reducing unlawful activity, we could all play together with high-quality areas for each without the other interfering, and with shared areas.

Good ideas from some of the snomo guys included  a non-motorized Sno Park at Beverly Cr. Add that area of Stafford to make a genuine, quiet, non-motorized area and corridor to Wilderness, great! Get control of the Wilderness trespass, get some real USFS management, maybe we can keep these large, pristine areas out of Wilderness so we may use them- with the "all MINE" stategy of yielding to no management, then the real "antis" just line up for more Wilderness- sadly easier than just getting some USFS management of the area perhaps.

We get it that some have contempt for this individual poster, get over it. Try to discuss the issues in an honest manner. There are some here who will never approve of what WMC says or does, understood, we heard that as well. There are folks reading this thread.

Not much discussion about how snowmobiles were allowed to take over and ride an entire pristine crest of the Wenatchee Mountains along the Wilderness Boundary near the Stuart Range. A stunning lack of curiosity? We find no plan, study, NEPA process, or anything that states that pristine area is even open for snowmobile recreation. Given the green views of many here, probably green views even of  some stalwart WMC critics, that is a fascinating oversight from folks who live where banning plastic grocery bags is a major issue to save the environment!

And what of the recreational conflict? Plenty of rants may be found about skin tracks- steepness, snowshoers in, voiding in, dogs in, on and on. All sort of commentary about social/ recreational conflict. However, not much discussion about machines of 150 HP up to the special 350 HP snowmobile in the video being considered as appropriate in areas that are used by pedestrians?

We are trying for discussion and involvement of self-powered skiers in these important issues. I can imagine it a daunting thought to post input or opinion here and risk being then assailed by Scotsman and his cronies and Mr Oker. How about discussion of the issues, please?

Thanks.