Snomo in couloir

I'm willing to declare cautious support for some of WMC's proposals.

What I do support: Enforceable regulation limiting snowmo access.
Don't support:  Drawing boundaries based on personal agenda.

Comparing snowmo to ORV is a little misleading.  You would have to consider "if there were a trail in this area, would ORV use be allowed?"  If an area would have ORV use except for the lack of a trail, why not allow sleds?  Climbing a couloir looks like a hell of a lot of fun.  I may not choose to own one but if you handed me a helmet at the bottom and pointed, I'm all for it.  We need dramatic terrain for sledders to play.  Areas that require a long valley approach to reach higher terrain would offer little conflict with skiers.  I believe WMC would suggest snowmo approach and then self-powered only to the ridges.  I disagree because if you are tring to limit machine access, part of the solution is to designate challenging area for all users.
 
In some areas where there is a trail that is not restricted due to Wilderness or Park status, increasing pedestrian use may lead to a ban that formerly had none.  I agree with this even though I have been on the receiving end of the ban (mountain and dirt bike).  I think Baker and St Helens are both areas that would be appropriate as self-powered only.

Snowmos have access to many areas that are very lightly travelled by skiers due to travel time.  Areas that have been traditionally frequented by skiers and are now available to snowmos due to tech improvements should be considered for restricted access.  Areas that receive a lot of pedestrian visits should be closed to snowmo use along with enough of the surrounding area to preserve the quiet.  Claiming that all users are equal is a fallacy, one machine can diminish the experience of hundreds of self-powered users.

The enforceability issue might be easier with a zero tolerance, Wilderness confiscation policy.  By the time the FS racked up a fleet of 50 machines, I think the message would be heard.

Please check our Proposal ideas and maps- there are three Proposals, incorporating input from others. WMC took into account comments from all sides of the discussion. The largest area asked by WMC is considered small in the scheme of management, Also, get a Forest map and compare the three Proposals' area to the rest of the District that is available for riding- small, There are also quality high-elevation areas for snowmobile riding that are not along the Wilderness Boundary.
www.justgetout.net/Wenatchee/21163

USFS cannot and will not try to manage snowmobile riding or enforce snowmobile Wilderness trespass, see this message attributed to USFS on Snowest last year- www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213073

"March 23rd Letter from Cle Elum Forest Service Supervisor Tim Foss:

Dear fellow snowmobilers,

Once again, the issue of snowmobilers riding in wilderness is rearing its head. This is not a new issue, as you know, but it seems to be on the increase again. We are getting more and more letters from backcountry skiers who are really unhappy about seeing and hearing snowmobiles in wilderness, and once again the drumbeats for closing routes that get close to wilderness are getting louder. As you know, we (the Forest Service) are completely unable to patrol these boundaries with any degree of effectiveness. We will be putting up signs, and flyers at sno-parks, but I'm also asking for your help in getting on top of this. If you could pass this message on to your riding buddies, clubs, and especially folks you see in the woods who may be inclined to ride in wilderness:
"RIDING IN WILDERNESS LEADS TO CLOSURES OUTSIDE WILDERNESS". Or as I like put it "Every time you put a track in wilderness, you hand a box of ammunition to those who want to shut down our sport" Also, if you are aware of an incursion point that could use a sign, contact me and I'll get you one. You guys have always been helpful , and I'd appreciate any continued help in getting the message out. I'm also not very computer savvy, so if anyone would like to post something on Sno-West or other appropriate forums, that would be great.. Thanks in advance for your help!


Tim Foss
Trails, Wilderness, ORV, and Winter Recreation Manager
Cle Elum Ranger District"

The WMC Proposal sets back the snowmobile boundary to allow reasonable enforcement opportunity at no added cost to USFS. USFS has the legitimate authority to close the necessary Forest lands to interdict snowmobile Wilderness trespass. Our WMC proposal offers an idea to allow enforcement from the NF Teanaway Road as a Boundary, allowing the exisiting USFS snowmobile personnel the opportunity for enforcement within existing budgets.

Finally, we have not found any study, consideration, NEPA process, or designation for all of this dispersed offroad snowmobile riding. Such planning is done for other types of mechanized travel. It is hard to imagine how difficult it would be for USFS to do a proper analysis and designation, so the issue is ignored, USFS does not manage as directed by law and regulation, competing uses are unmanaged. One of the uses in winter gets the goods first and most, and as some have said that use is sort of like smokers in a restaurant.

There is pre-existing management of snowmobile riding from decades ago along the NC Hwy and on Mt Baker, for example. There are Forests in Montana, Idaho, Colorado, for example, with the type of management WMC proposes.

Thanks for good discussion.

I worry WMC generates an "us vs them" culture. I think the WMC prescence at TAY is a bad thing for backcountry skiers. I do not want to be percieved as having anything to do with WMC.

1. I share the joy of the back country the sledders.

2. I want to be an allies with that "guy on a sled" in an emergency. I would certainly aid him in an emergency, and would hope he would do the same for me.

3. I have to share that trailhead with the sledders.

4. I was concerned when sledders cut the slopes over the groomed Hog Loppet trail and I am worried the "us vs them" culture is already started - I want to help reverse that - it is very sad :'(

5. I don't like noise, but I don't think they damage the environment - if they keep going in small numbers. Now dirtbikes ARE an environmental disaster - look at the So Cal desert...

6. And, just maybe that sledder will give me a tow

I worry WMC generates an "us vs them" culture. I think the WMC prescence at TAY is a bad thing for backcountry skiers. I do not want to be percieved as having anything to do with WMC.

1. I share the joy of the back country the sledders.

2. I want to be an allies with that "guy on a sled" in an emergency. I would certainly aid him in an emergency, and would hope he would do the same for me.

3. I have to share that trailhead with the sledders.

4. I was concerned when sledders cut the slopes over the groomed Hog Loppet trail and I am worried the "us vs them" culture is already started - I want to help reverse that - it is very sad :'(

5. I don't like noise, but I don't think they damage the environment - if they keep going in small numbers. Now dirtbikes ARE an environmental disaster - look at the So Cal desert...

6. And, just maybe that sledder will give me a tow

Alisa thank you for the discussion. If you wish to pm  or explain with specific input about what you do not like that would be appreciated.

This poster rode my new Ski Doo 650+ miles last season, all to go out to ski tour. I and WMC have no issues with sledders, nothing but positive interactions with other snowmobile riders, The issue is how snowmobiles are managed on the Wenatchee Mountains. Thus, the WMC issue is with USFS management. Snowmobile riding is managed along Hwy 20 and on Mt Baker, WMC seeks management in the Wenatchee Mountains.

In winter I skitour many days with family and friends on snomo legal areas. Sometimes when 'sledders' are just ripping around having fun, I do not think that they realize the effects on pedestrians- they fly by pretty close to my family. They are just having fun, it is lawful recreation, however our point is the two uses at the same time are often incompatible.

WMC has considered the 'sledders' and tried to incorporate ideas for their sport while creating some areas for non-motorized along that area, more than the CFR Designated Closed to snowmobiles four Sections on the crest at Tronsen that is largely unroaded. We have not talked to anyone on any 'side' who is against stopping the snowmobile Wilderness trespass. That is an important issue that needs to be illuminated and solved.

Thanks!

I and WMC have no issues with sledders, nothing but positive interactions with other snowmobile riders,

Really, WMC? You've told me more than once that you carry a gun when you sled to ski because you worry about encounters with "aggressive" riders. And hasn't another WMC proponent received threats at home due to their WMC advocacy?

Your original, wildly provocative and overreaching proposal was about creating areas for non-motorized recreation along the entire Wenatchee divide but then it was also about wilderness trespass by a few misbehavin' riders, now it's about managing snowmo use in the forest.

Obviously, you are with most all of us regarding the wilderness trespass issue but I'd modestly suggest you quit poking a stick in the eye of the law-abiding snowmo community. It just makes them pissy and everyone suffers.

I'm not convinced that the WMC proposed areas are appropriate for banning sleds. I don't tour a lot there but my perception is that these areas are used a lot by snowmos and only lightly to moderately by skiers. There is a sno-park and the terrain is good for machine use.

On the other side, there is the opportunity for wilderness trespass since much of it borders Alpine Lakes.

Why should skiers take precedence here? Are there nearby areas with similar terrain that would stay open to sleds? How much of an imposition would regular snowo users consider the loss of these areas to be?

I am thinking of petitioning the USFS for a ban on sleds within a 5 mile radius of my current tour. I'll have to get a Spot so everyone can stay updated. :

Great to see some interest and passion. This is a difficult discussion and advocacy. Even those with frustration at the situation often seem to just drop it after a few sharp comments.

This is a very interesting commercial video of snomo riding and filming at Navaho Peak (spelled per the map here) on the Teanaway/Ingalls divide Wilderness Boundary-



Often there is talk about sharing and respecting others, interesting video here of sharing. Check out the commentary-



Skiers,' snowshoers,' and winter hikers/ campers,' calm but determined voices are needed in asking USFS to manage snowmobiles on the Forest.

Thanks.