March 9, 2011 Take Responsibility For Your Actions

I felt a little uneasy reading through this thread the first time around without quite being able to articulate it, so thanks for reviving this thread freeskiguide. And for digging down to the crux of this discussion - which is the ethical inconsistency that Amar restates quite clearly. Some good points are being made. I too would like to know what Crystal's policy is.

Please explain your policy, because there appears to be a major logical flaw / inconsistency going on here.

To Amar & Cumulus:
This was my "take away" from a National Ski Areas Association workshop a few years ago:  You'll find that many things in the ski resort business (parking lot maintenance, road closures, hotel services, lifts running, ski trail closures, food availability, etc.) will seem "inconsistent" at times, because the whole industry is impacted by a) the weather, and b) the behavior of people....both of which are often inconsistent.  So you can always frame confusion you experience by asking the question: "Could this have anything to do with fluctuations in the weather or the behavior of people?"   Usually it will, so you can let it go and have fun skiing!

Beyond that, it wouldn't be wise for a ski area employee to commit to any particular course of action publicly, because one needs to reserve the right to make last-minute changes without warning in the interest of guest & employee safety.  Remember that ski areas are private companies that greedy people often sue.  And they don't enjoy the "governmental immunity" that some public agencies might enjoy.  I've noticed you ask some good questions on TAY that don't get answered, partly because it wouldn't be wise to discuss policies and procedures publicly.

However, if you're worried about being left stranded to die in the woods overnight: 

Y'know, in America, it's generally illegal to refuse life saving service to someone if you're able to help them without compromising your own safety, or that of kids & elderly & handicapped in your care, blah, blah, blah.  But really, that's a moot point because most people who work at ski areas are nice people who would rather help out than see others suffer.  But it might not be safe to ski in the woods in the dark, right?  So who will help THEM if THEY get hurt while rescuing you?  Their employer's insurance?  Do they have to purchase their own insurance?  (Apparently there's recently been some hubub about the costs of medical care in America--something like that.)   I wonder if some of the commenters above are really that above it all, or simply haven't been at it long enough to have had to consider it.  Or maybe they're just really rich.

In any case, for the most part, the "rescue" costs we're talking about aren't that much when they're anything at all.  I'm not in a position to commit to a price list so somebody can comparison-shop for the amount of rescue they plan on needing.  But it's hard to believe someone could afford to ski (the gear, the travel, the Shotbloks & Luna Bars) and not be able to contribute to having their sorry-unprepared-ass hauled out of the backcountry when they screw up.  We'd rather have you call and discuss it (Crystal's emergency number is 360-663-3064--other ski areas have 'em too!) than wait until it's after dark and things are dire!!!

So, is it lawful for Crystal to charge for rescue or not? It seems kind of like it is not, and if that is true then this is a straight-up mafia shakedown. Would he be able to sue them for fraud?

At MHM it clearly says you will be billed on their website. On Crystals website, it only cites Washington Sate Skiers’ Responsibility Code, “R.C.W.79A.45.030.(7)- “Any person skiing outside the confines of trails open for skiing or runs open for skiing within the ski area boundary shall be responsible for any injuries or losses resulting from his or her action.” ...mentions nothing about being billed/liable for rescue costs.

I'm not in any way condoning the action of skiing out of bounds. But out of curiosity, I also wonder what authority a ski area has to bill someone for rescue services?

So if he called for help and they then told him he had to pay and he responded with "I don't have any money", does that mean he would not be rescued? I personally feel it is irresponsible for rescuers to be demanding money when someone is in distress. It would pi$$ me off if that happened. If the policy is put out in a way that everyone knows (printed on ticket, etc) then the ski area could go after the person after the fact, but it should not be part of the rescue conversation with a lost skier.

Suppose your car broke down in the desert and you call a tow truck company to come get you (or a taxi) and they tell you its going to cost $1,000 to come tow you to town. You say you are not going to pay for it but that you will probably die (eventually) if they don’t come tow you out. Would the tow truck company come get you for free? Should they be liable if they don’t? What if you said you would pay but once back in town you refuse? What do you think would happen?

We are talking about private companies (Crystal, towing agencies, taxis) versus government or volunteer agencies (SAR, county Sheriffs, etc). Why should Crystal patrol have to come rescue you for free? Should they be liable if they don't?

There was an incident earlier in the season when a couple of skiers accidentally dropped down into Crystal Lakes (outside Crystal’s boundary) instead of Silver Basin (inside Crystal’s boundary) in Crystal’s Southback. They called patrol for help, were told they would be charged for the rescue, and then said they didn’t want to be rescued. What did we do? Did we just say sorry and hang up the phone? They just said they weren't going to pay to be rescued.

The lost pair were ‘coached’ over the phone on how to get back in bounds. So they side-stepped 2,000 feet (it was a deep powder day) back up to Silver Basin following their descent tracks. Two patrollers waited inbounds where their tracks left the boundary waiting to assist if necessary. They were not charged because they were not 'rescued' even though there were several patrollers involved and dedicated to the 'non-rescue'.

We don’t have a ‘policy’ for every possible situation. Our policy is “it depends”. (And as Corey said we probably wouldn't broadcast it publicly even if we did). But do you (here ‘you’ is referring to no one in particular) really think we would knowingly leave someone out to suffer for the night and possibly die of exposure because they refused to pay? If you think this you obviously don’t ski at Crystal much….

I believe it was discussed in this thread that Crystal is not the only place to charge for out of area rescues:
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...62.msg81261#msg81261