Skier in Jackson Hole arrested for skinning

Perhaps if you read this interesting article you will understand why.
www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tie...istic%20group&st=cse
TAY is IMHO a tribal moral community, Not That There Is Anything Wrong With That he hastens to add.
Tribal moral communities can be very positive, supportive and beneficial as a whole as is certainly evidenced by this website and as recent events prove.
However, as the article suggests, they can have detrimental effects if the bias that communities centered around" sacred values " inherently have is not also recognized by the members at the same time.
Therefore it should not be surprising that issues regarding public access to capitalistic ski areas by a person earning their turns who is also aged has such a conformity of response.

Please read the article before throwing stones.

Heh heh
I read the article. And I say, Nice Try.
I see no correlation to the good scientist's theories and TAY, whatsoever.
IMHO TAY is a group of folks with a common interest of enjoying each other's company and common interests while engaging in, collaborating upon and discussing backcountry skiing. I fail to see why having differing opinions regarding the topic at hand in any way proves that TAY falls into any such discriminatory “tribal moral community”. You can add all the additional psyco-theories you want (and, of course your opinion is just as valid as mine) but I see TAY as nothing more than a group of folks that enjoy their common interest in skiing and ski mountaineering. That's it.

Have you ever seen a BillyTheMountain skiing down Alpental at 50MPH? 6foot 4inches of 200pound black helmeted ski ninja?
I saw a skinner just at the top of Sessel just last week. We came by him at 40 or 50 MPH and did he get OUT OF THE WAY!!! Skinning at a ski area IS MUCH TO dangerous to ALL parties.

I have done it and got kicked off the mountain by a groomer after hours.
The groomers have a problem with it, the skiers have a problem with it and the skinner MAY have a problem with it.
Skinning uphill at a open ski resort is,
like driving the wrong way on the freeway.

I agree with Gib, MAKE THE POLICY CLEAR and consistant. Just TELL me what you decide and I will follow the policy.
Ban skinning uphill in an open ski resort, this is the only fix that makes sense.

Someone brought up some problems like standing or sitting on the slopes. These are very legitimate questions. Snowboarders are sometimes sitting in the wrong place and that is quite dangerous. Snowboarders also move differently then skiers. Skiers move DOWN the fall-line while snowboarders move sideways to the fall-line. This can easily be a hazard.

I have also noticed that there are many skinners now in the mountains in general. 2 to 4 years ago there were not, In fact there were none 10 years ago. So this is a new thing. I would expect there will be fatalities and accidents due to just the sheer number of skinners. We NEVER used to see all the skin tracks on Snoqualmie, Red and other mountains surrounding Alpental. Now it is common to see them.
Sorry but, NO skinners in the (open) ski area please. In my view, it is extremely dangerous and if the skinner wants a BC experience, the (open) ski area is NOT the place to get a BC experience.
BillyTheMountains sometimes ski blind due to fogged eye-coverings or visibility problems.
I also saw someone skinning up Eisfallen at dusk just 2 weeks ago, I assume they were training for Vertfest as that is what it looked like. It also looked dangerous as hell due to downhill skiers. In fact I thought the person was an idiot for doing that.
Again, its like driving the wrong way on the freeway.
Kindest regards,
BTM

Snow always answers the whats and the whys. - Schluctism

Yes, I agree that sometimes riders choose very bad places to sit. This must certainly be addressed - somehow.

Yet: maybe people shouldn't go 50 mph on *regular* resort runs. At this speed, you may not be able to stop safely and quickly, and I am not sure how much control you have to handle the unexpected. If you ski down at 50 mph, I'd argue you are being reckless to the possibility of hurting someone. And I won't even go into discussing 'ski blind'

Cheers
Ivo

Have you ever seen a BillyTheMountain skiing down Alpental at 50MPH? 6foot 4inches of 200pound black helmeted ski ninja?
I saw a skinner just at the top of Sessel just last week. We came by him at 40 or 50 MPH and did he get OUT OF THE WAY!!! Skinning at a ski area IS MUCH TO dangerous to ALL parties...

Skinning uphill at a open ski resort is,
like driving the wrong way on the freeway.

Billy, if someone has fallen in your ski  path (not skinning) and on the ground, are you suggesting the fallen skier faces the chance of severe injury because you might be unable to stop or avoid?

Now I'm going to issue the same challenge to you that I laid down to a similar post:

I would be interested in hearing some hard numbers on uphill skinners/downhill skier-border accidents.

I have followed ski area deaths pretty closely over the years and have reported them many times on TAY. Quite honestly, I can't remember a reported incident where someone skinning at a ski area was hurt, maimed or killed-- though obviously not denying that such incidents occur. But, in light of actual numbers, I have to remain convinced that this is a potential problem that may or may not be an actual one.

However, here is an example of just the opposite from last month also involving a doctor. It was a snowshoer hiking up at the ski resort that worked to save the skiing doctor's life: "Snowmass, CO - A 77 year old Michigan man died Wednesday of cardiac arrest after telling passers-by that another skier ran him off the trail.

Thomas Berglund, 77, of Kalamazoo, told Snowmass Village resident Philip Shalen that he was run off the trail into deep snow by a "kid," according to statements Shalen made to the Aspen Times newspaper. Shalen was snowshoeing up the Green Cabin trail on Wednesday when he encountered Berglund uninjured but unable to extricate himself from deep snow.

Snowmass Ski Patrol was contacted, and as patrollers helped the retired physician back into his skis and down the slope, Berglund went into cardiac arrest and later died at Aspen Valley Hospital."

The skiers responsibility code:

www.nsaa.org/nsaa/safety/know_the_code.asp

Skiing and snowboarding can be enjoyed in many ways. At ski areas you may see people using alpine, snowboard, telemark, cross country and other specialized ski equipment, such as that used by disabled or other skiers. Regardless of how you decide to enjoy the slopes, always show courtesy to others and be aware that there are elements of risk in skiing that common sense and personal awareness can help reduce. Observe the code listed below and share with other skiers the responsibility for a great skiing experience.

   1. Always stay in control.
   2. People ahead of you have the right of way.
   3. Stop in a safe place for you and others.
   4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.
   5. Use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
   6. Observe signs and warnings, and keep off closed trails.
   7. Know how to use the lifts safely.

Be safety conscious and
KNOW THE CODE. IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

This is a partial list.
Officially endorsed by: NATIONAL SKI AREAS ASSOCIATION.

My opinion is that uphill skinning, snowboarders sitting on runs, and other skiing hazards can all be handled by the skiers responsibility code. Snowboarders should not stop and sit where they cannot be clearly seen from above. Uphill skinners should not skin where they cannot be clearly seen from above. If somebody is skinning uphill in an area where terrain or other obstacles hides them from view from above, then he/she should leave the run to pass the obstacle, then re-enter where they will be clearly visible. If a person fails to observe these guidelines, then they can be held at fault. Many of these concepts have been written into Washington state law (RCW 79A.45.030):

apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=79A.45.030

I feel that as long as they adhere to the skiers responsibility code, people should be allowed to skin uphill in ski areas operating on public land.

Yet: maybe people shouldn't go 50 mph on *regular* resort runs. At this speed, you may not be able to stop safely and quickly, and I am not sure how much control you have to handle the unexpected. If you ski down at 50 mph, I'd argue you are being reckless to the possibility of hurting someone. And I won't even go into discussing 'ski blind'

Cheers
Ivo

Why don't you contact me, go downhill skiing at Alpental with me and the crew (I am usually just trying to keep up with them) and SEE FOR YOURSELF instead of making arguments in favor of "flaming" me. I can possibly arrange for a free day pass with (Alpental Ski Patrol) for you. This would be very interesting to me.
Sitting at a puter trying to understand skiing at Alpental will get you to a dead end of assumption and speculation. You will HAVE to go with me and my crew to see WHY a person may be skiing at high speeds at Alpy.

By the by, (I have been)41 years skiing with NO injuries at about 80 to 120 ski days per year. I have also "saved" MANY skiers from certain injury or getting lost at Alpy over the years. I feel that I have some experience and knowledge about fast skiing, not to say I am perfect, I am not, but, my (Alpental) teacher/guru was Ryan Graham, when I could keep up with him! (Lucky me!) I have NEVER been told to slow down at Alpental and am always in control. I will admit to ONE collision in the BC with a skier that WAS my fault (no injuries) and  I learned from this low-speed-on-ice dumb move.

I am 100% for real about touring Alpental together in a transparent and respectful manner.
The very best of regards,
BillyTheMountain

Snows Fred Astare stares Fred instead. - Schluctism