Subaru Forester (2010) and Chains, WTF

I have to strongly disagree ...  

The statistics verify this: Americans have orders of magnitude fewer accidents per mile than the world as a whole, landing just below (but very close to) Europe.   International Accident Statistics Much more detailed statistics

I really hate to do exactly what you said Americans do and respond to a conflicting opinion with "Well, that's just your opinion," but you posted an opinion based on your observations, and I'd like to point out that only 14% of vehicle fatalities occur in "highly motorized countries" like America or the UK.  Many nations in Africa suffer from over 50 times as many fatalities per vehicle than the United States, while America has nearly an identical rate as the UK or Japan.

I will concede America has a high accident rate per capita (although still nowhere near the highest, and lower than New Zealand).  However, this statistic is less informative than accident rate per mile or per vehicle, because a much higher percentage of Americans own and operate vehicles than in any other large country, and on average they drive much further.

Well ... I felt much safer riding my bicycle long distances in Belize and Kenya (including Nairobi) and Zimbabwe (including Harare) and France and Spain from the standpoint of driver courtesy, drivers not throwing beer cans at bicyclists (very common here) or running bicyclists off roads and not littering the roadway with glass from beer bottles.  A statistic: 3 of us rode 900 miles across France and Spain without a flat tire; upon returning to WA all 3 of us had flat tires within a week. And an anecdote: I drove close to thousands miles towing a trailer south through Mexico over several weeks only to be seriously rear-ended ($19,000 damage) by an inattentive US driver (after passing by, passing, following, and being followed by thousands of Mexican drivers).

I suspect accidents/mile might be low in the US because of (1) good roads, signs, lights, etc., (2) slow traffic compared to Eurp, (3) low traffic volumes on rural roads, including Interstate Highways outside of urban areas, and (4) vehicles that are newer and in better shape than in 3rd world countries.  Ever ride in a mattata? (a box on the back of a small pick-up truck in which they will pack 12 or so people).  I remember driving on the may international highway going west from Nairobi and having to drive into, through, and out of potholes.  Many vehicles on the road were in bad shape.

But you actually agree with me:  "Americans by no means are good drivers, and they are aggressive, inattentive, and rude" ... "I will concede America has a high accident rate per capita" [despite good roads, newer cars, etc. etc.]

Whether or not US drivers are the worst, by far, of any drivers in the world is debatable but their failure to use good driving skills and their carelessness in driving is less excusable than anywhere else in the world (that makes them worse to me) You should read the local papers in Lewis and Pierce to just see how many are repeatedly driving with suspended licenses, repeatedly driving under the influence of drugs and alcohol, and driving without insurance. How do our drunk driving fatalities compare with other countries? [I have no idea]

The neat thing about Subarus is the fact that they tend to time travel in the middle of a crash:

He said the crash occurred shortly before 2 p.m. when a southbound Subaru Forester traveled into the northbound lane and sideswiped a Ford pickup truck hauling a camper trailer.  This caused the Subaru to rotate, and it was struck in its side by a Ford Expedition sport utility vehicle around 1 p.m.

theflume.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=7610

As one of the few people on this forum who have never, ever owned a Suburu I've been steering clear of this discussion. However, I do claim some minor expertise on the subject of the relative skills of American drivers. In my excruciatingly humble opinion, American drivers are the worst in the Western, industrialized world.

This is in part because licensing standards are extremely lax compared to, say, anywhere in Europe, in part because it is more necessary to own a car here than elsewhere (which means that nearly everyone drives, unlike many places where public transport is a viable option), in part due to strict enforcement of selected rules of the road (e.g., DUI), and in part because Americans are .....how shall I put this?.....ever so slightly temperamentally narcissistic. To the core. Hey, even the Italian drivers--not known for their sanity or selflessness--know how to get out of the passing lane on the autopistas.

But of course there are worse drivers. Anyone doubting this need only visit Albania, Morocco, India or [insert your favorite sub-Saharan African country here].

Hope this contributes to the discussion.

Mark

Illusory superiority and driving ability

You are right about the whole. I was actually being serious. "No brag, just fact" to quote my favorite action hero. I've been lucky enough to combine some years of off road motorcycle racing with a job that gave me decades of two lane travel and 2 - 4 times a year I had to use accident avoidance maneuvers other that just standing on the brakes so I always drive defensive. There are a lot of people that can drive a car but I observe very few motor vehicle operators. You've seen them. Do the speed limit or more just because the sign says they can. Not to jinx it because like travel in the back country, stuff happens, but 1,000,000 miles since my last teen age fender bender. I will be getting snows with studs when I relocate and do more mountain travel.

In response to acarey and markharf:

Remember two facts that you need to keep in mind when deciding if Americans are worse drivers than those in other countries:

(1) You've driven far more miles in America than in any other country. Therefore, all else being equal you're going to see far more idiots driving in America than other countries. Nobody remembers the car that stays in its lane doing a reasonable speed, but you will remember the a**hole that cut you off.

(2) Americans drive far more miles per capita than any other country. Again, all things being equal, you're more likely to encounter an idiotic driver by spending an hour on I-90 than an hour on the M-40, because there are more cars on I-90. You get more trash on the side of the road largely because more cars traveled that road. And our accident rate per capita is higher (although not the highest), because we spend more time behind the wheel.

I find it inconceivable anyone with any experience in underdeveloped nations would argue Americans are the worst drivers in the world. If you want to argue that Americans are the worst drivers in the industrialized Western world, that's a more reasonable opinion, but statistics simply don't back that statement in any way shape or form.

I find the reference to Italian drivers quite funny. Yes, they will get out of your way when your roar up behind them. They'll also completely ignore lane markings and go four abreast at 100 kph on a three lane wide highway in bumper to bumper traffic, with motorcycles driving between the cars as well. Italy ranks only behind Greece for traffic fatalities in Europe, with over 3% of men dying behind the wheel -- a rate almost twice America's.

I've driven all over the world (literally), and I'd never say American drivers are the worst in the world. I did say the worst in the Western, industrialized world, and I meant it.

I am not ignorant of the way statistics work, and I think you're ignoring a few factors and presuming a lot. I drove (rode, actually) 30,000 miles in almost every country in Europe, East and West, and saw less than five blown out recap tires on the roads. Try counting the number you see in an equal amount of driving on US highways--it's vastly out of proportion to the number of drivers.

Likewise the number of bad drivers encountered: I had exactly three people pass me on the right during all that time....and two were in exit-only lanes and were exiting. I had no one--no one!--cut me off without seeing me or try to change lanes into a space I already occupied. And if you think I-90 is crowded by European standards, you need to get out more.

Now, about those statistics: Italians kill themselves in great numbers, but they don't threaten *me* the way Americans do. They don't talk on the phone while they're lane splitting and cramming three cars and a bus into two lanes on blind corners; they're alert, attuned, and totally predictable. Once you understand their peculiarities, it's not difficult to stay safe among them. However, I'll grant you Rome is not for the faint of heart. Neither is Athens.....but then again, I've driven in New York as well, and that's a scary place on a motorcycle.

See the distinction? I don't care how many Italians die in auto accidents; I care whether they're trying to take me with them. I feel similarly about Americans; it's the fact that they show no regard for *my* safety which offends me. This might not show up in your statistics, but it's highly relevant.

I agree that anyone who's driven in the developing world--particularly south Asia, most of Africa and a few other places I could name--will tend to find Seattle traffic rather tame. And I haven't even been to Vietnam, which some say is the worst in the world. Nor have I driven in Egypt or India, both of which also make everyone's list of worst places to drive. But I did just get back from riding 45,000 miles in Latin America, which ought to give me some small measure of credibility. And I've put on quite a few miles in various parts of Africa as well.

Safe journeys!

Mark