WMC Update 2012

Thanks again, yammadag, Ruffy, and Newtrout, your points have merit, but we will disagree.

agreed this is a good discussion, and amazingly free of garbage for how long this thread has gotten.  Who would have thought? ha ha

Firstly, as thoughtful and kind are are the words yammadag, Ruffy, and Newtrout- thank you-  but we disagree. Where have any of you three agreed that a skier and snowmobile ridden on the same slope are incompatible uses? No matter the argument, that is the reality. We need our own areas. thus the Forest must be divided. davidG nailed this with his comment above-

I guess I would state that why would a snowmobiler and skier have to ride the same slope?  On my excursions in different areas, if I come upon a group of skiers on a hill, I consider that hill "theirs" and I move on to different areas.  It is quite easy for me to do so, so why not?  Most if not all the people I ride with are like that as well.  The areas are big enough..

The reality beyond both of our dialogues is that snowmobile riders have no Designated off-road Forest Areas to use. All that is discussed by USFS are the groomed systems for snowmobile riding, as far as we know in WA.

Isn't that a big assumption? That users are to remain on trails only? Would the same be said for cross country ski users on ski trails? IMO, the groomed systems are a means of access only.

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I support the WMC/TSP goals. My concerns have been mainly directed at how to make the project successful in the long run.

Thank you!

WMC....again, your limited ability to see that the WILDERNESS and EXISTING NON-MOTORIZED spots are your own area!..Perhaps your perception of the limiting to designated roads for snowmobiling should also apply to hikers on trail and skiers at designated ski slopes. I hardly think that's acceptable to any of us(you and I both) that enjoy the BC.

the displacement of the largest user population of users from a top area for the few special interest users is not something that I can stretch my imagination to uderstand. Yet I do agree you need an area that is without conflict. I understand that the trench a sled leaves behind on a climb would be hard to handle on skis, but the entire wilderness and existing non-motorized areas have this environment.

Not once have I seen a sled on MT. Ranier, and it would be sweet to hit some of the bowls I see from hiking around Sunrise, although I have seen a group of BC skinners use it up. Why them and not me on my sled?


Like someone mentioned, we also need areas that are compatible with BC off trail alpine snowmobiling without conflict of other users, where do you suggest we have this location? Tons of great territory is already designated to outlaw snowmobiles, so where else do you suggest after your proposed area is also restricted?

Isn't that a big assumption? That users are to remain on trails only? Would the same be said for cross country ski users on ski trails? IMO, the groomed systems are a means of access only.

Please tell us where USFS has codified, written on a map, Regulation, or brochure that snowmobiles may be ridden anywhere offroad. We have looked, we have asked USFS. What we have found thus far is assumption on assumption- one that snowmobile riding does not harm the resource, therefore there is no USFS attention of regulation of snowmobile offroad riding. This does not mean that USFS have written or decided anywhere that we have found that snowmobiles may be ridden anywhere offroad.

Thoughtful consideration in the end may come to a surprising conclusion. That is, in spite of the assumption by snowmobile riders that they has a "right" to ride here or there, no documentation that we have yet discovered supports or Authorizes the riding of snowmobiles on offroad USFS areas in WA. Please show us if such documentation exists.

 
Isn't that a big assumption? That users are to remain on trails only? Would the same be said for cross country ski users on ski trails? IMO, the groomed systems are a means of access only.

This I believe is the core of the issue and needs to be addressed by the FS. When was the current Forest Plan written? There is language that speaks of snowmobile use both on groomed and ungroomed routes, but nothing addresses the issue of off route travel by snowmobiles. I would say that it's a big assumption to think that snowmobiles can travel anywhere off route on FS lands outside of Wilderness Areas and official non-motorized areas.

Very rarely do I see skiers in Esmerelda Basin.   

Once the road melts out to within 1-2 miles of the TH the skiers start arriving.  Usually by then that first uphill part is melted out and probably no longer great for sledding.