WMC Update 2012

How much new Wilderness acreage has been added on the OWNF since 1984?

The pedestrian users of the winter forest (skiers, snowshoers, etc.) are constantly losing ground to the motorized users.

You aren't loosing ground. There are not legal restrictions as to where you can go. What you are loosing is the availability of close by powder stashes due to increased competition from other winter recreation users, mainly snowmobiles. It isn't that you can't go there, it is that you just don't want to. I think that is an important distinction.

What you fail to understand is that we are being gradually displaced from our traditional areas of use by snowmobiles.

Nope, I understand this completely. Which is why I am for increasing YOUR access into wilderness and other non-motorized areas.

There were BC skiers and snowshoers going into the forest long before there were snowmobiles; read any historical guide book.

As stated before, legacy does not mean legality.

And the large percentage of the wilderness areas are inaccessible to those traveling on foot in the winter vs all the sno-parks for snowmobiles which are right on the road.

For one, snoparks are right off the road because there isn't enough money to keep a road plowed that is miles long into the woods and it doesn't need to be.

Maybe skiers could pull their resources and get one done? Maybe charge daily parking fees like they do in Canada to help pay for it? It would be nice if options were focused on that didn't take from one user group and give to another.

No, I don't know enough to say, but will trust your take that it's shrunk. My comment referred to skiers, who are losing useful terrain as well described in multiple posts above. I suspect. but can't confirm, that skiers are losing practical terrain at a faster rate than snowmobilers (who, after all, have seen increase in practical terrain over the past 15 years thanks to more powerful sled technology becoming more common, which is an obvious "practical" increase of useful terrain, as some of us skiers have seen up close and personal).

Has it occured to anyone that maybe you should view yourselves as lucky for being able to ride in a designated motorized area for so long for such a high quality?  Why is it that when snowmobilers can finally take advantage of the area DESIGNATED for  them to use that it is now taking away from non-motorized users?

Oh, and I do realize that this is a very, shall we say, interesting, point of view... Just a different perspective for people to think about.

For MOST snowmobilers it is shrinking. For those that think they are above the laws, then it is not.

It is troubling the continued assertion that most snowmobilers don't care about staying out or wilderness and respecting the agreed upon non-motorized areas.

Is it your opinion that the practical areas for snowmobile use have not been decreased by the defining of lands as Wilderness?

We commented that there is obviously significant and continuous volume of snowmobile traffic in Wilderness. We do not believe all snowmobilers 'don't care.' We have pleasant encounters with virtually all of the snowmobilers that we meet. We say goodbye, they go off and have fun tracking the powder. Quickly. We do not expect compromise nor do we expect concern for our uses from snowmobile riders- we have not seen that.

In the thread on Snowest "Ruffy Makes it up Lookout"- was that a new experience for Ruffy or is that a mostly unknown route? Anyone wanting to view the thread will need to register on Snowest -   www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=216329 (Washington Riding Areas) Viewing this thread would be instructive for skiers in regard to the type of terrain on which snowmobiles are ridden.

We understand the challenge, the fun, of finding new terrain on a snowmobile, we observe that happening continually. The reality is that the amount of the resource of snowy Forest for recreation is limited. The capability and mobility of snowmobiles has reduced and dominated the resource of snowy Forest. We skiers and human-powered recreationists want areas set aside that may be enjoyed untracked and in quiet.

Has it occured to anyone that maybe you should view yourselves as lucky for being able to ride in a designated motorized area for so long for such a high quality?  Why is it that when snowmobilers can finally take advantage of the area DESIGNATED for  them to use that it is now taking away from non-motorized users?

Oh, and I do realize that this is a very, shall we say, interesting, point of view... Just a different perspective for people to think about.

Areas are not designated as 'motorized' in winter for snowmobiles in WA on Forest other than groomed roads. Such offroad snowmobile use has occurred by default, without intention or plan or with the realization that snowmobiles would be ridden in places that are now routinely ridden. The lack of clear management of snowmobile use is the culprit.

In asking for designated non-motorized winter recreation areas, we are asking for management of snowmobile use on the Forest.

Is it your opinion that the practical areas for snowmobile use have not been decreased by the defining of lands as Wilderness?

The Alpine Lakes Wilderness area was established in 1976.

I believe the establishment of this wilderness area predates the development of snowmobiles that could travel off-road in the typical alpine terrain of the central Cascades.

The next major wilderness act in Washington was in 1984. The following document summarizes the wilderness areas established by this act:

alpenglow.org/ski-history/notes/misc/usfs-1984-wmaps.html

As summarized in the above document, the 1984 Washington Wilderness Act made no changes in the areas the WMC is addressing.

The only Washington wilderness established since 1984 were inside existing National Parks (the Washington Park Wilderness Act of 1988) and in the Wild Sky area west of Stevens Pass (2008).