WMC Update 2012

I believe that wilderness makes up 40% and not 30% (according to the OKNF website).  

That remaining 60% also includes Stevens Pass, Mission Ridge, Snoqualmie Summits, White Pass, and Loup Loup ski areas. Also note that many of these ski areas have extensive cross country ski trails, and the lands for the ski hills include more then just the actual ski runs.  

How did you come to the determination that the remaining 60% of FS and SP land that isn't designated Wilderness, gives free run for snowmobiles?

I was hoping to get clarification on this subject.

I'm very glad you didn't mean to insult and take you at you word.

But I'm still not sure what reaction you thought your "they disagree with me because they're Brits" hypothesis was going to provoke other than that which you received.

Just wanted the explanation of what you originally meant though. So there's no need for yet further name calling or silly allegations of cowardice.

Happy Birfday.

I'm happy you can accept I meant no insult by my comment. I wasn't trying for a reaction, merely trying to understand. I moving on from this silly thread, it seems it will accomplish nothing.

Chris, Andy Dappen and Wenatchee Outdoors are not the driving force or the creators of the WMC and 1000 skiers project.

I wont be getting behind this project with the current information given. As most that have been posting on this topic know, I am a snowmobile owner and user. If you cant get creative enough (owning a snowmobile) to find good skiing, you have some serious problems. I bought a sled to increase my available areas to ski and that's just what it did (more than I could have ever imagined). Also, I can't support a project that is looking to reward those who only have a snowmobile. That is, it seems that the alliance wants to allow skiers with snowmobiles (minority) to use the sled along an access road, park it, and have untouched snow to ski tour on. That seems a little elitist, and I feel that there is plenty of Wilderness Areas that can currently be used this way (even with the poachers, whom the FS should take actions against). Besides, if Wilderness is getting poached now, how are you going to expect snowmobilers to leave your pristine stash alone?? And do you know how many people will buy sleds in the future and show up at your private stash to tour?? It could have moguls 10 years from now!! I say, get out a map, explore, and use your sled to mix it up in the many different established areas. The first step, IMO, is to protect the areas already established...the Wilderness areas. Now, if there was **A MAP** to show skiers who don't own sleds (the majority of skiers), where possible areas would be within a day trip in usual winter conditions (say Bean Cr.basin, specific areas off of Blewett, Hwy 2, etc.), I may be able to sign my name. Until then, the broad brush of "this (unspecific) now, more (ever expanding) later" is too vague and actually quite concerning. I don't know how someone could sign in support of this without having more information...

Good points, thanks for continued pertinent discussion. A map is in the works. We may use it in our meetings on the topic, it has not been decided when to post a map here. Check out the topo for Mt Stuart, the described area is easy to locate there. Two topos cover from Blewett to Mission, or the recreation topo map that is produced for that area covers it.

As we have explained, the proposal from WMC adds terrain that is of various proximity to the car. Some terrain is a few steps from the car, some is one or two hours from the car for an average traveler on skis or snowshoes. Some is either a long day trip by some folks, or a quick snowmobile-assisted skitour. Some terrain is clearly for overnight if self-powered.

The important point is that regardless of the distance, most of this terrain may now get tracked by snowmobiles. Some of us, as stated, have used snowmobiles since the '80s to get to the skiing. We know where the stashes are. We also know now that with increased numbers of riders and the fantastic high-performance snowmobiles available, terrain that is not designated as non-motorized will get tracked. The terrain that is tracked each season by snowmobiles increases, and to surprising locations.

Most importantly, winter recreationists who enjoy skiing or snowshoeing must realize, if they do not yet know, that their quiet recreation area may get tracked soon by snowmobiles. WMC asks for fair division of terrain, of parity of winter uses on Forest land.

...That is, it seems that the alliance wants to allow skiers with snowmobiles (minority) to use the sled along an access road, park it, and have untouched snow to ski tour on. That seems a little elitist, ...Now, if there was **A MAP** to show skiers who don't own sleds (the majority of skiers), where possible areas would be within a day trip in usual winter conditions (say Bean Cr.basin, specific areas off of Blewett, Hwy 2, etc.), I may be able to sign my name. Until then, the broad brush of "this (unspecific) now, more (ever expanding) later" is too vague and actually quite concerning. I don't know how someone could sign in support of this without having more information...

Exactly.

And to GUAVA, I can and do advocate for myself, but thanks for the motivational speech. If you want support from a siginficant # of folks outside the crew you already tend to see out on your favorite-but-threatened routes to take interest in your cause, you have not done enough to make it our cause (despite ruffyrider's funny H20 comment). I think I'm a good example of someone who generally "gets it," but is not adequately motivated by the WMC cause as stated here to sign on.

If you have enough "area locals" who love the area in question, life should be fine. If you need "all us BC users" to join in, get us more excited about what's at stake here! Nice but vague stories of your past fun don't really help me taste what's at stake here.

As has been stated above, this is a new effort, and we chose our first project in an area which we are familiar. Various folks supporting this have added their own points of what areas should be proposed as non-motorized. These areas are being described as a result of WMC/ TSP, and therefore will become more widely known to skiers. Skiers from west of the divide can (and do) reasonably drive the distance required to day tour or overnight tour in these areas. As a matter of fact, it has been observed for about three seasons that snowshoers from the west side are coming in significant numbers into some of these areas that are yet largely undiscovered by the backcountry ski community.

On TAY are TRs which describe snowmobile intrusion into Wilderness, into many non-Wilderness areas, and recently a TR described snowmobiles tracking the Yodelin area. This issue affects all skiers and snowshoers, those of us who live to the east of the divide and also those to the west of the divide.

We appreciate support. If a winter recreationist supports part or all or WMC/ TSP, then great! If a winter recreationist has another idea, or wants to ask the USFS to consider the issue, please speak up!

We are not wishing to ban snowmobiles or regulate snowmobiles outside of winter non-motorized areas. We seek a share of the powder snow to be reserved for skiers!

WMC, please don't continue to cut and paste your responses over and over and over again. By the way, there are two Iron Peaks along the Teanaway Ridge crest.  Which one are you talking about? This is why we need maps and more specific information with the proposed areas and boundary lines.