Updates??- 2 climbers, 2 campers overdue...Rainier

I'm more concerned about the effects on survivors: friends, family, children.

Criticism about decisions made and paths chosen often gets ruthless, even brutal. I try to bear in mind the effect that my words might have on, say, kids, husbands, wives, parents or close friends who are perhaps already devastated. I find it thoroughly inconsiderate to start piling on so quickly.

Mark

I'm more concerned about the effects on survivors: friends, family, children.  

This pretty much sums up where I am on this type of thing -- it's not a matter of immunity to criticism, but a matter of respect for the fallen and their family.  In the weeks after Monika's accident last year the number of visits to the forum had a huge spike, since it was probably the best place to get the latest information.  Friends and family, craving every little detail or clinging to a scrap of hope, are going to read over our every word on the subject.  It's hard enough to handle the grief without having to filter out the harsh criticism that this kind of analysis can quickly become.

Well, that's the dilemma, isn't it: if you hold back on any analysis or criticism of an incident out of respect for family and friends, then you may lose the chance to publicize important lessons which could be learned from the incident. If you wait until after a lengthy grieving period has passed (months, a year?) then the incident has faded from public view, and the important lessons will not be widely heard even if presented then. For the first time in my life, I dealt with the death of two close friends in the mountains within the past year, so I'm certainly much more sensitive to the issues regarding grief of family and friends than I was before. But even more so after those two fatal accidents last year, I don't think that family and friends should be shielded from the truth, or that public discussion of an incident should be avoided.

If their loved ones died in an unavoidable freak accident, then that is very important to know, and the family and friends always get told about that by rescuers -- but on the other hand, if their loved ones used poor judgment which was the primary contributor to and cause of the accident, then the rescuers and family liaisons scrupulously avoid any mention of that "out of respect". So the family and friends are left with a false, positively-skewed picture of what actually transpired in those cases, which in the long run does them a great disservice.

Not all incidents have important lessons to be learned -- some really are primarily freak accidents where the only thing that would have saved someone is random chance or staying home. But other incidents are not accidents at all, and may have been easily avoidable or preventable, in which case important lessons are there to be learned and the details should be exposed to public view. I think that in those types of incidents, facts should be publicized quickly if they are known, while the issue is still hot and people are actually listening and might possibly learn from it. It may make the grief more difficult temporarily for family and friends, but I'm certain that it is the right thing to do. Obviously, many others disagree with me strongly on this issue, and prefer to keep the frank discussions hidden and the lessons unpublicized.

We are people who routinely indulge in recreational activities which are, on the evidence, risky. We've all had friends--sometimes close friends--die in the mountains, often doing more or less what we do every weekend. We've discussed the embedded issues a lot, year after year. In a very important sense, we're ready.

Friends and family, particularly young children, are not so ready. They haven't spent the time we have experimenting with the odds, discussing the possibilities, adjusting to what might happen. This makes them far more vulnerable than you, I, or the average participant here. They're even more vulnerable--far, far more vulnerable--in the days and weeks immediately following a death.

There's a strong case to be made here for seeing things from their point of view, not ours. I just edited out a rather snotty paragraph I'd written about this being the essence of adulthood, but the essential point remains.

Mark

No one forces these people to read this stuff. Perhaps they are responsible for, and capable of, making the decisions about what they care to read when they are bereaved? It's not like posters are getting in their face and expressing their opinions...people have a choice as to what they read. That being said, self-editing is not a bad thing, nor is considering how others may feel.

my best friend was killed in an avoidable snow accident and i'm positive he will want others to not make his deadly mistake. helping others seems to be the tay mantra in times of good and bad, amar is a huge help to this community.
best of luck to the masses
bobbyfreibrg