- Posts: 81
- Thank you received: 0
Baker south side reports?
- RossB
-
- User
-
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- T. Eastman
-
- User
-
- Posts: 288
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- aaron_wright
-
- User
-
- Posts: 429
- Thank you received: 0
that is the third result. That is what this area is called. The map, not a topo, shows the apex of the triangle at the top of Sherman Peak. This isn't that complicated. If that's not enough, go find a paper map and learn the boundaries. Why do people need to have every little thing laid out for them? What happened to personal responsibility?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- trees4me
-
- User
-
- Posts: 214
- Thank you received: 0
He did call the FS LEO and it is illegal. It's our responsibility to know the boundaries and respect them. Just because you believe something to be legal doesn't make it so. That's not how the world works.
Actually, due to consistent cuts to public outreach and enforcement, that's exactly how the world works.
really? you must be living in canada, eh? here in the USofA, it died a long long time ago.What happened to personal responsibility?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- davidG
-
- User
-
- Posts: 764
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Amar Andalkar
-
- User
-
- Posts: 635
- Thank you received: 0
Here are some indisputable facts Amar:
1. The sled community believes that it is legal to ride to the crater (including the clubs that interface w/ the FS all the time).
2. Sledders ride to the crater practically every day during the season (and have been for probably 30 years), not because they are negligent or intentional law breakers, but because they believe it is legal.
3. FS knows about this and does not object, even when it happens in their presence (e.g., at snomo club events that are also attended by the FS - which happens every year).
4. The FS posts a map on the page on their site dedicated to snomo rules on Baker and it shows the top of the mountain between the Roman Wall and Sherman Peak as within the legal zone (which just so happens to be the spot you are flagging as illegal).
That map may not be up to your lofty standards Amar, but the FS knows people will rely on it. (And if you think "official" maps are perfect you may want to look into the story of the Infinite Bliss climbing route controversy on Mt. Garfield.)
Please tell me you at least called the FS to confirm that it is illegal before coming on here to declare it "100% illegal". I'd be just blown away, totally stunned in fact, if an individual with your obvious attention to detail (based on your excellent trip reports) did something so reckless.
As Aaron stated above (thanks!), I have spoken with the USFS law enforcement officer for Mt Baker Ranger District last June, and confirmed that the boundary is as shown on topo maps (i.e. the crater rim is well inside the wilderness, and illegal to snowmobile to).
So unfortunately, your "indisputable facts" are both disputed and not facts. The only thing which is not actually disputed is the location of the wilderness boundary, which is marked accurately on all available topographic and planimetric maps (USGS, USFS Mount Baker Wilderness, USFS Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest, Green Trails, etc.), and is well known to the USFS and to all snowmobile groups (but clearly not known to many individuals who snowmobile). Still can not comprehend how you (or anyone) could possibly think that the hand-drawing you refer to ( www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_MEDIA/fsbdev7_001285.gif ) is some kind of official boundary map -- it is NOT at all, just look at any real topo map instead.
Based on what happened last May following that Baker TR (see May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds , and specifically reply #83 , where I detail at length my phone conversation with the USFS LEO), the USFS knows that the crater is off-limits to snowmobiles. The LEO never once disputed that the snowmobiles were illegally in the wilderness if they had gone to the crater. Only that I had not collected enough photographic evidence for the USFS to take the issue to court. Please read that post for details.
In addition, the "sled community" knows that it is NOT legal to ride to the crater, if by sled community you mean snowmobile clubs such as the one whose president contacted the USFS LEO after seeing my TR, worried about another potential black eye for snowmobilers and looking bad in public opinion. Those snowmobile clubs know full well that it is illegal to ride to the crater, and also illegal to ride to or park in that favorite lunch spot near 9500 ft. That's all inside the wilderness.
So your "indisputable facts" have now been shot full of holes. Except #3, which unfortunately is all too true. So let me restate them for you:
1. The sled community, as a whole, knows that it is NOT legal to ride to the crater (including the club president who contacted the USFS last year).
2. Sledders ride to the crater practically every day during the season because they are either negligent (don't know boundary), or they are intentional law breakers.
3. (true, very disappointing that some USFS employees behave this way and do not even raise a finger to object to illegal wilderness trespass)
4. The FS posts a hand-drawn map which some (like you) think is an official boundary map, while ignoring the correct boundary shown on topo maps including the 2005 USFS Mount Baker Wilderness map and USGS maps, and planimetric maps such as the USFS Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest map.
Change is going to come to the south side of Mt Baker. Snowmobile riders will have to stop their illegal wilderness trespass, or some group like Wilderness Watch with deep pockets and plenty of lawyers is going to get pissed off, and take severe action.
Their solution will be simple: they will ignore the snowmobilers but instead sue the USFS in federal court, accusing the USFS of dereliction of its duty to enforce wilderness boundaries adjacent to the Mount Baker NRA. They will seek a temporary injunction demanding a full closure of the Mount Baker NRA to all snowmobiling to prevent irreparable harm to the adjoining wilderness, until such time as the USFS has clearly marked the wilderness boundary and is prepared to enforce it. They will most likely find a federal judge who is willing to grant such an injunction, too. The entire FR 12 road system accessing the NRA will then be closed to snowmobiling. By the time everything is sorted out in court over several years, the entire south side of Baker will have been closed to snowmobiles for all those years.
This will happen, unless the snowmobile community starts effective self-policing soon.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.