Expansion of North Cascades National Park

In the next few days, I will comment on concerns about how American Alps will affect current recreation activities.

It will come, Scotsman. It will come as per him already saying it will.

Many who think like I do fear that the dominance of the conservationists within the NPs who just want to lock it up and throw away the key is a real danger. We call it the Disneyfication of the parks.

I don't see why you think this as big of danger. In fact, without Disneyfication, as you call it, people would be less interested in the wilderness at all and hence its preservation or access. Without the ability for of a 'hard-core' hiker, once upon a boy/girlscout types, or without a few paved pathways, or without access to others who aren't able/willing to hike 15 miles just for 5k of turns, the general populace wouldn't likely care as much. This effect would more likely lead to the 'locking up' of the environment for those who want to go beyond the parking lots, because we wouldn't be able to get to any parking lots.

Such 'Disneyfication' has enabled the enjoyment that is seen in many other place: Mt. Rainier NP. Sure you have to get past Muir to have any chance of isolation. Who do you think pays for the roads up to Paradise? Well, it is not park revenue, but it is the government conned by support of the people who enjoy Mt. Rainier's Disneyland rides...

So like it or not, when the general populace can enjoy a taste of what we do, they will help to enable the preservation. They might even start hiking a bit to go beyond the parking lots. But still I don't see why their access to the immediate areas prevents others from going beyond.

It is time-consuming and complex, but really aren't all politics and all environmental solutions local? 

I would like to think this, but it seems that there are entities political and industrial that exist beyond the local level, with resources far beyond the local level. So, you are right N3C should do its best to go to the local level for support, as it is essential. But preservation could not be accomplished by purely local groups without massive support from elsewhere.

It is indeed complex and intricate. Getting something done to really protect the wilderness and let people do reasonable things that they want to do, is incredibly difficult. While, as with many things in the gov, a NP might not be the best solution as per suggestions of the NPS having major deficiencies... in fact, there likely isn't a best solution. But it is a solution than what we have that has worked 'OK' in the NCNP currently and just as well elsewhere. Revolutions may need to be had for it to become the best, but I also, don't see this happening.

Hello,
Since heli-skiing in the North Cascades is part of this thread, I would like to respond with my point of view. We have a vested interest in continuing operations in our permit area for another 20 years so we are obviously concerned about the park expansion project and goals proposed by NC3.

First, a clarification in regard to some of Lowell's earlier remarks: The permit amendment situation in the early 2000's was more complicated than just wanting to operate two helicopters simultaneously. The quick version: The extra ship was only to be used for film and special projects so as to not interrupt the ability to facilitate guests. Although, for a variety of factors, we have no interest in running a second machine, the amendment was not denied.
Second, snowmobiles have been going onto the alpine terrain off the highway for many years now, especially as the machines have become more powerful. Riders have even made it into Temple Creek (part of the Sawtooth Wilderness) from the hairpin. That said, there is limited alpine terrain accessible from the highway for snowmobiles and a fair amount of that is closed to snowmobiles, at least on paper.

It is never enjoyable to read how someone thinks your business should be banned from operating, but with heli-skiing, that literally comes with the territory. We do operate on public lands. While some folks see heli-skiing as a trite desire, others see it differently and certainly something more than good turns, thrills and great vistas (though these experiences are much appreciated on their own). The same could be said for many other recreation/tourism-based businesses, like whale watching, for example.

The AALP is just that, a proposal, which the NC3 is seeking public support and financial backing for to see what is possible. There are many issues and subjects that at this point are somewhat nebulous and clearly debatable if these forest service lands were to be incorporated into the national park system, whether it is smaller themes of recreation-based concerns: Heli-skiing in or out; Mountain biking the Cutthroat trail; Dogs on the Maple Pass loop; Hunters in the Early Winters creek drainage; Snowmobiles on or near the highway; Permits to camp near Blue, Snowy or Wing lakes – the list goes on and on….
Or whether it is bigger issues, such as the implied imminent or futuristic problems listed by Mr. Davis that could alter and damage these "unprotected areas." Should the West Fork of Cedar Creek be managed by the Department of the Interior to help protect against the threat of constructing water storage dams in the upper Methow? One can always build a great case for any cause using the notion of “long-run” threats.
As this project unfolds, it will be interesting to see to what degree the NC3 will exaggerate or misrepresent the situation along the highway corridor to gain support for their project.
There most likely would be greater protection for the "study areas" targeted by the AALP if the park is expanded, and with that also comes greater constraints and rules for these remote and beautiful sections of the North Cascades, much of it along a scenic highway corridor, that is a crown jewel of the USFS’s public land system and is surrounded by hundreds of thousands of acres of protected wilderness. Recreation-wise, the access and amenities largely already adequately exist. Perhaps this is part of what makes these areas have that “Golden Age” feel, one that has been relatively unchanged for decades and has the high likelihood to continue that way for decades to come.

The NC3 project is destined to be a complicated one, and most likely, a divisive one. Unfortunately this is not what these study areas need as opposed to unifying all the entities and individuals that are passionate about the North Cascades in advocating better management through greater funding and intelligent supervision.

Thanks for your time,

Paul Butler
North Cascade Heli
Mazama, Wa

While some folks see heli-skiing as a trite desire, others see it differently and certainly something more than good turns, thrills and great vistas (though these experiences are much appreciated on their own). The same could be said for many other recreation/tourism-based businesses, like whale watching, for example.

Maybe I'm being obtuse, but what else is there about heli-skiing other than good turns, thrills and great vistas and sharing this with friends and like minded individuals?

How much revenue would you estimate NCH brings to the valley excluding the Freestone Inn and your business? Do all the individuals who work for NCH live in the Methow year round? I'm just trying to understand the argument about economic impact on the Methow valley if heli-skiing were banned.

I don't think comparing your business to whale watching helps your pitch.

...
I too would like to hear more about the National Recreation Area idea. Would it be possible to address the problems that JRD's post describes by designating some of these areas as NRAs? My maps and memory are dated, but my understanding is that the Ross Lake NRA extends from the lake to Crater Creek, but no farther. Would designation of the Highway 20 corridor from Crater Creek to Silver Star provide the necessary protections? How would NRA management differ from National Park management?

Here's a link to Mt. Rogers NRA established in 1966, incorporating lands from 2 NFs and a Va State Park; it differs from those established around reservoirs: [url=http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/gwj/mr/index.shtml[/url].  What I found attractive back then (haven't been there lately) was the emphasis on trails, some campgrounds, some cabins, a couple of wilderness areas, and a fantastic backcountry environment and scenery.  And, now, the public outreach, debate, and planning on limits to acceptable use.

Note NRAs can incorporate NP, NF, and State lands, private lands purchased or with conservation easements (Shenandoah NP has lots of scenic conservation easements); they can incorporate natural areas that can be managed as federally designated Wilderness or as de facto wilderness, and they can incorporate 2nd growth forest and grazed areas that could be managed for ecological restoration or managed sustainably for commercial use compatible with overarching objectives.

I'd love to see an Mt. Rainier NRA that would include the adjacent Wildernesses, Late Successional Reserves, and unconstrained Forest land (now largely neglected) including Skate Creek Rd, with some development of the latter for campgrounds (bicycle campgrounds, adventure touring motorcycles [not dirt bike/chopper m'cycles), and car camping that would allow people to spend more time here exploring backcountry, wilderness, and park areas using muscle-power; parts of the NF are available for mountain biking, ORVs, snowmobiles, hiking, fishing, hunting, vandalism, drug use, etc. The problem now is funding--to keep trails and recreational roads maintained, for law enforcement patrols, reducing littering, campground construction and maintenance, restoration of degraded areas, etc. etc.

Unfortunately, we are in such a state of deficit spending I fear that funding for NP and NF will decrease in the near to mid-term future.

Maybe I'm being obtuse....
I don't think comparing your business to whale watching helps your pitch.

It takes people who may not normally go to the Highway 20 area in winter , up into the magnificence that is the NC in winter and shows them how marvellous it is , would be one argument. Those people then become stakeholders in protecting that magnificence.

Whale watching quite a good analogy IMO, uses motorized transportation to take people to see these magnificent animals and hopefully makes them realize how important it is to protect them.
I have heli-skied with people who have never ventured beyond a resort and are simply spellbound by what they see. It would be presumptuous  and elitist of us to think that only those of us that" earn our turns "are worthy of the revelations that the NC in winter provides.

It takes people who may not normally go to the Highway 20 area in winter , up into the magnificence that is the NC in winter and shows them how marvellous it is , would be one argument. Those people then become stakeholders in protecting that magnificence.

Whale watching quite a good analogy IMO, uses motorized transportation to take people to see these magnificent animals and hopefully makes them realize how important it is to protect them.

How is taking in the magnificence of the NC different than great vistas? Seriously, I'm not being combative. What else is there besides good turns, thrills and great vistas?

I didn't say it wasn't a good analogy, I said it didn't help his sales pitch. Telling a group of people who are primarily interested in ski touring(used to be anyway) that heli-skiing is like whale watching doesn't do anything to help preserve this activity. When I think of whale watching, I think of tourists in Hawaiian shirts fawning over these animals, much like the Disneyfication of the National Parks you so loathe. If it's so important to protect the whales, why not leave them alone? I would think most people who consider whale watching have already decided that they need protection. Taking in the mountain landscape in winter is secondary to the skiing when heli-skiing, why not just take a helicopter or fixed wing excursion to see the great vistas?