WMC Update 2012

If the USFS is not going to enforce the non-motorized areas they have now, why try to enlarge it?  From my experience, those who push for non-motorized land are never satisfied and will continue to push for more.   If someone wants to hike in silence as mentioned above, there are plenty of areas to do so but it seems the focus of some is to silence all snowmobiles from the mtns, or push them all into a small square of land.   If you continue to squeeze the snowmobile community's available terrain it will only lead to more snow poaching, and nothing burns me more then to have snowmobiles buzzing around me when I'm in an area they do not belong.   If BC skiers/boarders go into dual/use land they should expect to hear the sounds of snowmobiles, or smell the sled exhaust, but that is their choice by going into that area.

BTW, I do not own a snowmobile and do all my BC on foot, but I used to own snowmobiles in the 1980's.  I do not claim to be an expert on this subject, but just my opinion.

Thanks for commenting here!

We would agree that enforcement is problematic as stated by USFS personnel (quoted) on Snowest and BackcountryRebels Forums. The WMC proposal is roughly demonstrated on the maps kindly produced by Lowell Skoog here on Page 9 (WMC has not produced a map at this point). Boundaries and enforcement are considerations of the proposal. The western high altitude area of the WMC proposal is very tough now to enforce, but with the WMC proposal clear boundaries are established on Roads. Under the WMC proposal one or a few USFS personnel may enforce the entire area from the ends of several Roads- snowmobiles ridden beyond those roads would be in violation. Currently the open terrain along that crest that is the Wilderness Boundary is unenforced and perhaps unenforceable. The east end of the WMC proposal has roads and Trails used to designate a clear Boundary. Currently the Tronsen Non-Motorized Area is violated by snowmobiles riding up and over the Chelan County Line into the Non-Motorized Area, an unmarked and unclear Boundary. The WMC proposal would have obvious Boundaries, and could be easily enforced from the Road.

As far as a "squeeze" on snowmobiles, the situation is literally and unequivocally other users being squeezed by rapidly expanding unexpected and unanticipated expansion of snowmobile riding into new areas. Please look at the link for Sno Parks and note how many and how large non-motorized areas are currently- very little of the total-    www.parks.wa.gov/winter/trails/?TrailType=motorized

We have used snowmobiles to access touring in the Wenatchee Mountains since the '80s. For many years the terrain limited snowmobile riding thus we were able to coexist and ski nice areas in the midst of snowmobile riding. We actually have met and talked to many fine folks who ride snowmobiles, and have never encountered in person the negative behaviors. During the past few years, as a result of greatly improved power, suspension, and tracks snowmobiles are riding 90% of mountain slopes roughly where just a few years ago snowmobiles could access only 40% or 50%. Also, it is noticeable that the change on the snow is not just compacted as previously, quite skiable, but the new machines dig deep trenches that persist through subsequent snowfalls. The end result is not a squeeze on ski touring in many areas, it is the elimination of ski touring in these areas.

Hey, thanks for your opinion, you are an owner of the Forest and your opinion matters! We believe that we are seeing a significant effect of USFS noticing and paying attentkion to individual-citizen comments and advocacy.

Thanks for all of the comments here everyone, it creates great discussion!

Interested in this as well.  WMC, Will you answer this question? Note we are talking about off-road Alpine riding here.

OK, and perhaps ruffy and yammadog could offer tangible counter proposals or ideas, or even an acknowledgement that non-motorized winter Forest users have legitimate needs other than that of snowmobile riders? 

The Esmeralda area and Gallagher Head have open slopes, is this correct ruffy? Ruffy and Yammadog would know better since skiers often go toward and into Wilderness. Yammadog said, " How about some suggestion on non-motorized corridors to wilderness areas"- yes, sir, just read the WMC proposal, the western portion is exactly that! Again, look at the total of the non-Wilderness Forest that defaults to snowmobile use compared to that set aside as non-motorized in winter- there is lopsided disparity favoring snowmobile use eliminating other uses. Not multiple-use at all. There is probably no exact replacement for the unroaded crest that is the Wilderness Boundary, but it is the Wilderness Boundary, therefore by Law, intent and design Wilderness has setbacks in non-Wilderness. It is likely that in the future such setbacks are possible or likely anyway out of Wilderness protection or resource/ wildlife protection concerns- these issues are aggressively advocated constantly by large and powerful formal organizations.

We are not hostile to snowmobile riding on the Forest, we ride snowmobiles, however we are putting our efforts into the creation of new and significant winter non-motorized areas. We are aware of significant numbers of citizens who express to us open hostility to snowmobile riding and who state they would support much larger and stricter regulation or prohibition of snowmobile riding on the Forest. In contrast, WMC is seeking a fair share of the total that is now taken by snowmobile riding. We would argue that this dialogue, proposal, counter-proposal and equitable Forest management seeking parity of uses will not only benefit non-motorized users, but would better preserve snowmobile riding on the Forest in the face of very significant public hostility to snowmobiling in general. Again, WMC folks ride snowmobiles, we want a share of the Forest for skiers (and other non-motorized users), we seek true multiple-use on the Forest by the creation of winter non-motorized areas.

Again thanks ruffy and yammadog for greatly enlarging the discussion, now how about you two studying and creating some ideas to present?

Thanks all for the great discussion!

WMC,

It seems that a large part of your argument is snowmobilers riding in areas where they are not supposed to.  I DO NOT think this is acceptable behavior for snowmobilers, nor is it condoned.  Snowmobilers need to do something about this.  Self governance is a start, but that might not go far enough and FS enforcement might need to be done more regularly. Obviously this is an expensive endeavor, but I would love to see snowmobilers step up and provide some financial help to make this happen.  Riding in Wilderness is a big problem, no doubt about.

As to the voluntary non-motorized areas, I don't have a problem making them mandatory and enforcing them. Though, I have never been in the areas and don't know much about them, but it seems like this is a non-issue for most snowmobilers.  Again, it needs to be enforced.

Getting access to the Wilderness seems to be the most logical answer to this issue. Yes, it is difficult, yes it is expensive, but it seems like it would be worth it.  I do not know enough about the locations as to what would or could be possible, but I think this would / should be a high priority and is something that I would think most snowmobilers would support as well.

In the above three examples, I think most snowmobilers would not have a problem with that and could be goals achieved with all user groups agreement.

I and many other snowmobilers do agree that the designed boundries are difficult to see in person, at the area.  They are rather abstract, not following specific ridges and other natural terrain features.  It is unfortunate that these issues were not considered during the creation of the wilderness.

"below is a link to my recent silver basin tour.
highlights:
I saw only 2 people and no snow mobiles on the ski in which was nice.
I appreciated the biler track in and out on the ollallie downhill.
When i got up into the basin i was bummed to see snow mobiler riders drinking beers beneath the good runs they had tracked out.
But they were cool guys and offered me a beer.
My ski line home was different but untracked.
  www.flickr.com/photos/11723786@N06/sets/72157623947447070/ "

I was there that day too.  These guys were personally OK although one could see that the activities that were pleasurable to them were inevitably the same ones that trashed the snow for us, never mind the noise and smell factors.  They did play it safe and were willing to radio each other to ensure that steeper steps with poor visibility were somewhat safe for skiers.  That is really appreciated.  I think the regulatory status of this area has been debated here before: I forget the conclusion.

watsonskipsmith,

Its interesting to here you say it was "tracked."   If by tracked you mean skied out, then yes.  If you are trying to imply it was tracked by sleds, then no.  The sled tracks were confined to essentially one climb path.  I think there was one rogue sled track, that I myself reprimanded the rider for making.  Yes, we did track it out on skis, however no one up there that day had the skills or abilities to ski the majority of the lines we hit anyways and I've yet to see anyone ski any of these lines in all my trips to silver.  Further, there was plenty of good untracked snow all over silver, and we (nor anyone I've seen) rides a sled down the main ski runs out of the basin.  I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the comment about your ski line home being different?   Was it negatively impacted by us?

dkoelle,

The activities that are pleasurable on a sled are the same as those on skis.  We are there primarily to ski though, so we tend to ride with a little more care.  Again, I hope you aren't implying that we trashed the snow.

Anyways, we try, as sledders and skiers.  I appreciate that both of you (watsonskipsmith and dkoelle) are civil and intelligent about it and didn't come back to TAY whining about your day at silver.  It means our efforts weren't ignored and that we did a decent job of looking out for skinners.

All the skiers I have encountered in my sled trips have been pretty nice, and we are nice to them, and we as skiers who sled respect and try to help them whenever possible.  Offering beers, food, a tow, being conscious with our tracks that actually aid skinners in their ascent.  When we do a sled ski mission, we bring tons of food and beverages and gear.  I know that touring doesn't offer that luxury, so the least we can do is offer a tired guy some goodies

On to the topic:

I find this whole thread/proposal by WMC to be pretty ridiculous.

Got a problem with your zones getting shralped?   Go on a different day, go at a different time of year, find a new spot, etc.  That's part of what makes skiing, skiing.  Why'd I get a sled to access zones?   Cause people were shredding up all the stuff that was easy to get.

The most important factor in seeing other people or sleds seems to be choice of day.  Maybe you should take a day off work and go out on a weekday instead of trying to cut off zones to others.

I'd like to close off all the zones I like as well, not to sledders, but to gapers who just screw up the lines for people who actually can ride.  Guys side slipping down slopes or making 90 million turns for no good reason, or skiing down silver peak in one large traverse that has less angle than my friends skin track up it.  Guess what, I bet over half of the folks on this site are these people who ruin my pristine wilderness lines.   Should I go to some authority and whine about it?   No, I should go find something new and better, and if I must go back to that spot, do it on a day that isn't so over populated by gapers.

I'd rather have snowmobilers in my skiing area, you know why?  Cause I know they can't ride the lines I ski.  And if they do, its one single track straight up.  I could give two shakes about one track up, from some single dude that had the balls to try it.  Good for him.  

Anyways, its good to see some rational thought from both sides in this thread, but at the same time the whole concept is out the window insane.   I understand my thoughts might not jive and might be considered out the window insane also, but it's my opinion.  I'm not gonna add anymore with regards to the topic at hand, I'm simply going to write my email and call it good.  That seems to be the only worthwhile action......so....carry on folks!

On this thread you have WMC arguing that the USFS needs to create more areas of wilderness .
On the North Cascades thread you have the NC3 and American Alps Legacy Project arguing that current USFS protection of the Highway 20 area is insufficient and that (in effect and paraphrasing,) that the USFS can't be trusted with governing this area.

mmmh?????
Contact your senatorial candidates and express your views.

The Highway 20  area should remain under it's current jurisdiction and additional funding and expansion for the NPS should not be allowed.
The WMC proposal for unilateral increase of wilderness areas by the USFS should be stopped and studies  performed to ensure equitable treatment of both motorized and non-motorized groups or unitl self-governing agreement between the groups can be reached.

Forget letter writing to the USFS.... contact your senatorial candidates direct and vote for only the one that supports your views.
Tell them that.

murray.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=ContactMe

www.dinorossi.com/

watsonskipsmith,

Its interesting to here you say it was "tracked."   If by tracked you mean skied out, then yes.  If you are trying to imply it was tracked by sleds, then no.  The sled tracks were confined to essentially one climb path.  I think there was one rogue sled track, that I myself reprimanded the rider for making.  Yes, we did track it out on skis, however no one up there that day had the skills or abilities to ski the majority of the lines we hit anyways and I've yet to see anyone ski any of these lines in all my trips to silver.  Further, there was plenty of good untracked snow all over silver, and we (nor anyone I've seen) rides a sled down the main ski runs out of the basin.  I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the comment about your ski line home being different?   Was it negatively impacted by us?

dkoelle,

The activities that are pleasurable on a sled are the same as those on skis.  We are there primarily to ski though, so we tend to ride with a little more care.  Again, I hope you aren't implying that we trashed the snow.

Anyways, we try, as sledders and skiers.  I appreciate that both of you (watsonskipsmith and dkoelle) are civil and intelligent about it and didn't come back to TAY whining about your day at silver.  It means our efforts weren't ignored and that we did a decent job of looking out for skinners.

All the skiers I have encountered in my sled trips have been pretty nice, and we are nice to them, and we as skiers who sled respect and try to help them whenever possible.  Offering beers, food, a tow, being conscious with our tracks that actually aid skinners in their ascent.  When we do a sled ski mission, we bring tons of food and beverages and gear.  I know that touring doesn't offer that luxury, so the least we can do is offer a tired guy some goodies

On to the topic:

I find this whole thread/proposal by WMC to be pretty ridiculous.

Got a problem with your zones getting shralped?   Go on a different day, go at a different time of year, find a new spot, etc.  That's part of what makes skiing, skiing.  Why'd I get a sled to access zones?   Cause people were shredding up all the stuff that was easy to get.

The most important factor in seeing other people or sleds seems to be choice of day.  Maybe you should take a day off work and go out on a weekday instead of trying to cut off zones to others.

I'd like to close off all the zones I like as well, not to sledders, but to gapers who just screw up the lines for people who actually can ride.  Guys side slipping down slopes or making 90 million turns for no good reason, or skiing down silver peak in one large traverse that has less angle than my friends skin track up it.  Guess what, I bet over half of the folks on this site are these people who ruin my pristine wilderness lines.   Should I go to some authority and whine about it?   No, I should go find something new and better, and if I must go back to that spot, do it on a day that isn't so over populated by gapers.

I'd rather have snowmobilers in my skiing area, you know why?  Cause I know they can't ride the lines I ski.  And if they do, its one single track straight up.  I could give two shakes about one track up, from some single dude that had the balls to try it.  Good for him.  

Anyways, its good to see some rational thought from both sides in this thread, but at the same time the whole concept is out the window insane.   I understand my thoughts might not jive and might be considered out the window insane also, but it's my opinion.  I'm not gonna add anymore with regards to the topic at hand, I'm simply going to write my email and call it good.  That seems to be the only worthwhile action......so....carry on folks!

Preach on Brotha