WMC Update 2012

This topic has gained attention within USFS- now is the time to give input!

We have heard from supporters who have contacted USFS in regard to the WMC proposal and Thousand Skiers Project. We are told that in phone conversations the message is that the need for non-motorized winter recreation areas is well known to USFS, with at least one other group currently working toward this goal in another Wenatchee NF area. We hear that USFS encourages individuals to contact USFS with their thoughts in regard to creating more non-motorized winter recreation areas.

The current goal of the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition is to:

First, demonstrate that significant numbers of Forest users are concerned with the need for more designated non-motorized areas for winter recreation. This is hopefully evident by numbers of citizens contacting USFS.

Second, WMC advocates specific suitable areas known to us along the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains to be designated winter non-motorized areas. WMC wishes to ask the OWNF Supervisor to consider the situation and then designate new and significant non-motorized areas for winter recreation.

Page 1 of this thread, and this article  www.justgetout.net/Wenatchee/18996   has more information about the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition Proposal and the Thousand Skiers Project, and the contact information for USFS. Thank you!

Hey, WMC...any chance you are going to answer my question?

Hey, WMC...any chance you are going to answer my question?

Backcountry skiers vary in terrain covered and vertical climbing per day. One of WMC Executive skis backcountry up to 80 days per year, maybe 1/2 of those days using a snowmobile for road approaches, about 1/3 of those trips enter Wilderness. Another skis backcountry fewer days but regularly and enjoys multi-day overnight camping trips on skis several times per season. Vertical feet climbed on skis at a rate of 1000 vf to 2000 vf per hour typically totals from 2000 vert ft/ day to 7000 vert ft per day, some skiers climb more. Many skiers want to do less, but done in a silent snow-covered Forest. From May until the next winter ski touring usually involves carrying ski gear on a backpack for one to several hours to and from the skiing. On this website are TRs of skiers covering 7 miles of road before ascending 4000 ft to 5000 ft vertical, ski down, back out. On a video showing the (French) World Champion randonnee skier ascending in the Alps it was noted that he had ascended 4,700+ vertical feet in one hour on skis. Of course, even the World Champion randonnee skier cannot compete with a rider who pushes a throttle and leans on a snowmobile that climbs at a rate of thousands of vertical feet in minutes and after many laps leaves an unskiable and deeply rutted snow surface.

WMC has opened this discussion and is promoting individual citizen involvement and advocacy for designated non-motorized winter recreation areas. WMC has for efficacy been specific with requests in regard to the terrain on the Forest that we use and have familiarity, and believe as previously detailed here are logical areas for our proposal. WMC is unfunded individual citizen-advocacy, unlike the interest-group funded rebuttal already directed at this effort that is in the discussion phase. WMC notes the arguments of estabilshed and traditonal use of these areas and will happily report that we have traditionally established uses of skiing and snowshoeing these areas since long before snowmobiles were ridden very far from roads and ridden not at all on large and steep mountain slopes to high summits and before snowmobiles were using the majority of every available square foot of unpacked snow in the general Forest to the exclusion of other Forest users.

WMC is not hostile to snowmobile use, we own and ride snowmobiles, we do not seek to ban or regulate snowmobiles outside of designated non-motorized areas. We seek areas for multiple-use in winter, meaning other than all for snowmobile riding outside of Wilderness (and unfortunately widespread in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness) or the few small existing non-motorized areas (also violated by snowmobiles last season and before). WMC asserts that skiers and snowshoers need areas free of snowmobiles for their use since snowmobiles degrade and effectively eliminate their uses on snow-covered Forest. WMC has the goal of meeting with USFS to present this proposal when appropriate, and of course then as USFS facilitates will meet and discuss issues with various user groups. WMC members include users who ski, snowmobile, and snowshoe.

WMC has not seen tangible counter-proposals beyond "no" and beyond delay and endless discussion that utilizes endless delay in the resolution of the issues. WMC intent is for civil discussion, proposal, and counter-proposal directed at the appropriate USFS authority. WMC is pleased that with this initiative design we have not yet been subjected to the vile words and threats widely expressed elsewhere toward non-motorized advocates or skiers in general, nor have we at this time as in the past been subject to snowmobile-Forum directed campaigns with posted personal information directing contact and mass phone calling at dinnertime to those who advocate for some areas to be designated as non-motorized. We do note that typically opposing arguments including those through professional paid marketing in opposition that the argument is given that if USFS creates non-motorized winter areas then there will be "conflict."

WMC has not established in research any USFS Designation specifically for snowmobile riding any areas other than groomed and ungroomed Roads from Sno Parks. This snowmobile riding-use by omission also includes the areas of the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains. WMC is advocating and asking for USFS management that will allow for multiple use on the Forest rather than in winter domination by nearly universal snowmobile riding on continually increasing areas and most of the Forest. We understand that snowmobile riding is legitimate and exciting recreation, thus see it as logical that snowmobile riders will continue to find new riding areas, push the limits, cut limbs or brush in places to establish new apporoaches for more untracked snow. WMC is attempting to educate skiers (snowshoers etc) of the fact that advancement in snowmobile technology has changed the paradigm, and in fact ski tours and Forest areas considered as inaccessible by snowmobiles may very well soon be tracked by snowmobiles. And, indeed, without management most of the Forest has no regulatory exclusion for snowmobile use, again likely an unintended omission in Forest management overtaken by advancing snowmobile technology.

The resource, snow-covered Forest for winter recreation, is limited. As a result, for the purpose of multiple Forest use, to serve the uses other than snowmobile riding in winter, WMC is asking for the designation of new and significant designated winter non-motorized areas.

WMC, thanks for the information about ski tour days/vf/time.

I'm still looking for your answer, with your opinion, of what areas do you see as suitable snowmobile territory with similar terrain as your proposed closure.

Additionally, I think the conflict you are creating could be minimized by your admission that wilderness IS part of your non-motorized recreation opportunities/areas and that looking in to creating better access, non-motorized corridors and increased enforcement to these areas could help in achieving your goals of exclusive non-motorized recreation.

And in the answer to my question, let's agree that the forested flat terrain of the valleys is not attractive to either sport/use. My position is about the treeless alpine territory you propose as closed to add to the existing treeless alpine territory already in effect.

thanks for your reply.

If the USFS is not going to enforce the non-motorized areas they have now, why try to enlarge it?  From my experience, those who push for non-motorized land are never satisfied and will continue to push for more.   If someone wants to hike in silence as mentioned above, there are plenty of areas to do so but it seems the focus of some is to silence all snowmobiles from the mtns, or push them all into a small square of land.   If you continue to squeeze the snowmobile community's available terrain it will only lead to more snow poaching, and nothing burns me more then to have snowmobiles buzzing around me when I'm in an area they do not belong.   If BC skiers/boarders go into dual/use land they should expect to hear the sounds of snowmobiles, or smell the sled exhaust, but that is their choice by going into that area.

BTW, I do not own a snowmobile and do all my BC on foot, but I used to own snowmobiles in the 1980's.  I do not claim to be an expert on this subject, just an opinion.

I'm still looking for your answer, with your opinion, of what areas do you see as suitable snowmobile territory with similar terrain as your proposed closure.

Interested in this as well. WMC, Will you answer this question? Note we are talking about off-road Alpine riding here.