WMC Update 2012

Ok Jim, I'll jump in with you. And I appreciate you, Aaron, and others participation. I'm still not seeing any constructive comms with WMC, not sure if you could point it out to me, but he seems tone def to any suggestion other than complete closure to the areas suggested.

From my reading on this subject, WMC is only proposing the exclusion of sledding in this alpine area. No suggestion of where they might want to share and completely avoiding the question. Where are the areas that are similar in terrain that can be effectively off limits to future closure? As suggested by this group?

I think the real answer is to find a way to make the existing area(wilderness) more accessible.

How do we do that and is that a workable solution in WMC's mind? The area proposed is some of the best riding in the state and used by many, what about looking at other areas to make non- motorized instead of such a popular location? I'm only hearing the same response from WMC....no compromise or even suggestion of a workable solution to provide access in comparable terrain and over all alpine type open areas.

I've tried to bring suggestion to make the situation more workable and leaving openings for WMC to participate in a give and take. I know whatever the solution, the education of the sledders and non-motorized groups will need to happen. Enforcement of the areas is going to need to happen and we know that's somewhat of a challenge with the existing aeras.

Snowmobile riding these areas has occurred long after skiers used these areas as well. One of our Executive and some of our friends were skiing or snowshoeing in this area in the 1970s, another in the late '80s and onward. WMC is not focusing on Wilderness protection nor on resource and wildlife protection, however we are aware of and in contact with some larger significant organizations who have invested considerable work into these issues and therefore into the limiting of snowmobile riding in these areas. Aside from the management of incompatible recreational uses, there are the questions of protection of Wilderness, resources, and wildlife from snowmobiles as well.

We see, and we see here, no compromise or sharing from the snowmobile community, and we do not expect to see that.

Here is an example comment from the counter-post on Snowest: ....

It is always easy to find an example of some other (opposing viewpoint) person who does not want to cooperate, and to use that as a basis to justify not cooperating with others. It's as unproductive as it is easy. I suspect WMC's posts are fulfilling the same role on the opposite side of the equation. Interesting symmetry.

Good luck,

It is always easy to find an example of some other (opposing viewpoint) person who does not want to cooperate, and to use that as a basis to justify not cooperating with others.  It's as unproductive as it is easy.  I suspect WMC's posts are fulfilling the same role on the opposite side of the equation.  Interesting symmetry.

Good luck,

Yes. How may skiers compromise when the terrain that they hope to ascend at a rate of 1000 to 2000 vertical feet per hour quietly, when that terrain is invaded by snowmobiles that climb 1000 to 2000 vertical feet per minute? The majority of the resource is taken by snowmobiles but not by intentional USFS plan or designation. That taking of the resource results secondarily to technology advancement in snowmobiles and the fact that enough Forest motorized users have the discretionary income to spend $8000 to $10000 for the snowmobile to use to rapidly consume the resource and thus deny the use of the resource to other users.

How is it that if skiers attempt to balance Forest use toward human-powered quiet recreation, toward the more natural condition, how is this a "land grab" and lacks "compromise?" When given knowledge of the current extent of offroad snowmobile use in the Forest and in Wilderness, most folks and even those not familiar with winter recreation on the Forest would likely be appalled! How is it that pedestrians who recreate on the Forest are elitist compared to the few numbers of snowmobile riders required to consume overwhelmingly the resource after spending $10000 for a snowmobile, more for a trailer perhaps $1000 to $5000, more for a tow rig up to $45000- all in order to range unimpeded using 150 HP to track most of the Forest simply by pushing on a throttle and leaning! In response to our advocacy for a share of the Forest to use quietly arguments arise in defense of the downtrodden, the innocent Forest users, when actually those riding snowmobiles offroad all over the Forest during the past decade have transformed the Forest in a manner not seen since timber trespass of a century ago removed much of the east slope timber without permission or payment.

Again, WMC is asking for a fair portion of the resource for non-motorized users.

Thank you for the discussion and for the nice sentiment, and good luck to you as well!

In reviewing some of the news releases from the WWA website, a common theme in the success stories was that of collaboration and compromise between motorized and non. WMC's attitude af, "there is no compromise because both pursuits are incompatible," would not lend itself to successful collaboration it seems. If/when the forest officials tell us forest users to sit down at the table and hash out an equitable plan, we all have to approach each other in the spirit of collaboration in protecting our precious powder, rather than it's my way or no way!

In reviewing some of the news releases from the WWA website, a common theme in  the success stories was that of collaboration and compromise between motorized and non. WMC's attitude af, "there is no compromise because both pursuits are incompatible," would not lend itself to successful collaboration it seems. If/when the forest officials tell us forest users to sit down at the table and hash out an equitable plan, we all have to approach each other in the spirit of collaboration in protecting our precious powder, rather than it's my way or no way!

Thank you, my point exactly. WMC is coming across as a zealot at this point.

And we can't over look the wilderness as part of the overall user area for non-motorized. We just have to find a way to make it more of a day trip to use it.

Y-dog, careful with extreme comparisons. WMC is passionate about his/her forest experience, as are you I'm sure. We just have to review what's worked in other states so we have a solid foundation for collaboration between users.