Advertising on TAY: your ideas wanted

Charles, I'm a CPA and I understand your hobby loss dilemma. I like the direction you are going on this. I most strongly support having fundraising events. For me, that's the most effective way to raise money and not only maintain, but possibly enhance the qualities that make TAY what it is. I think of the NWAC fundraisers and how they create a feeling of "mountain culture" when you see all these local skiers come out for a social event (to borrow Martin Volken's words at VertFest). TAY has been part of developing this culture, and I think doing fundraising can end up actually adding to it, rather than making it feel like it's a corporate imperative.

Just wanted to throw in $0.02 worth of comments on banner-type ads (my real donation will come later ). 1) I use Firefox with Adblocker plugin, so I never see them, and I presume that means you would never get paid by my visits, so what would be the point. That leads to my fear of 2) The worst-possible scenario: you put the ads on the site, but they don't generate enough revenue, so you've "sold-out" (for lack of a better word), but aren't accomplishing what you set out to do.

Also, regarding the high volume of Guest visits: I think some of that can be attributed to members not being logged in. I think at least half the time I visit TAY I'm not logged in.

What about the option of lowering costs? If you can't generate the revenue I would think you could shuffle things around to lower your costs??

Charles,
First let me thank you for a great web site, I use it constantly for trip reports and general backcountry information. As a small business owner myself I have often wondered how you could do this website without much revenue. I think it is great that it is not filled with ads and like the fact you can just get down to the business at hand. On the other hand ads can be useful for people needing gear, trying to go on a trip somewhere, etc. I am in favor of paying a yearly fee for being a member, and an annual e-mail asking for a fee would be fine with me. With all the members, that may do it, and it could also be coupled with some form of commercial help. Rather than a bunch of ads maybe it could be like Safeco Field in Seattle or Key Arena, a corporate sponsor, say like Outdoor Research that paid a fee to underwrite the cost of TAY doing business. Lets all get together this Sunday and talk about it, pass the hat and see what happens. This is a great forum that has to continue for the good of BC Skiing in the Northwest!

To fully explain what happened last year, beverage appeared, a cup was passed around to cover costs. Since I was involved in the portage and procurement of said beverage, I counted up the money, and we ended up about $100 over cost of said beverage.
This left me in a dilemma of what to do with other people's money. I decided that a 50/50 split with TAY and NWAC would most likely be agreeable to all whose money it was, so that was what I did. Felt a bit funny as the event was not sponsored, and I was very clear on that, if it were, we would quickly get into issues of liability, liqueur license (perhaps other beverages), land rental, etc. All of which need to be avoided, as I believe informality is key to making this thing work.

With that said. I love TAY and waste countless hours on it, almost daily. I'm not sure how I feel about giving donations to a for-profit business. I enjoy giving to non-profits. I have no problems supporting businesses I believe in/like.
In my mind this puts TAY in a murky position. Voluntary membership sounds appealing, particularly if I got a cool hat or something.......
In any case, I will click links and stay part of TAY, the whole things ROCKS!
Sorry I will miss fest.

jdclimber, thanks for elaborating on the use of the excess donations at last year's Fest. I had forgotten about the NWAC part, but I think that was a good decision. Probably a good idea this year as well.

On the not-for- vs. for-profit issue, I can say that when TAY was converting away from a simple "hobby" I did consider going the official (IRS) non-profit route. What put me off was the amount of time that would be required to do this; from what I learned it is a lot of work to provide documentation to the IRS that an operation qualifies for "non-profit" status, and it doesn't happen immediately. Then there is the administration side of the story, such as regular board meetings and other (vague in my mind at this point) administrative complexities. And of course just because an operation is officially "non-profit" doesn't necessarily mean that its supporters' money is being used most efficiently or wisely by its administrators, though one always hopes that this is the case, or that nobody is getting paid for their efforts.

So...TAY is officially "for-profit" - that's what has led to this whole discussion - but that doesn't necessarily mean that profit is the reason for TAY, the business, and in fact this is not the case. There were two main goals for TAY, the LLC: one, to provide some measure of liability separation between TAY and myself, and two, so that I could stop paying personally for the basic expenses involved in running TAY. To achieve these goals I have to be meticulous in running TAY as a business, which means accounts, equipment, supplies, services and the like must be business only, completely and always separated from me personally. I try to run TAY as efficiently as possible, as I would hope that a "non-profit" I was supporting was run. There are no employees and nobody gets paid. TAY has never had a new computer - I use my knowledge of Macs to make things work with used computers; I use open source software whenever possible, and learn how to make modifications when desirable; no meals deductions, conference expenses; etc. There's not much to cut when it comes to expenses.

From Nate R:

That leads to my fear of 2) The worst-possible scenario: you put the ads on the site, but they don't generate enough revenue, so you've "sold-out" (for lack of a better word), but aren't accomplishing what you set out to do.

The thing about advertising on TAY is that it's reversible. If things work out as you describe, then we can just "un-sell-out". I don't see this as a big problem.

On membership, as discussed earlier, I think a membership fee for access would radically change the forum for the worse, maybe even destroy it, as someone suggested. This place exists due to the free access and flow of information. There are also serious technical problems with this idea. A donation to TAY could be thought of as a membership fee if so desired. It could also be though of as payment for services rendered, or inducement to continue services, or encouragement to provide enhanced services in the future, etc. The intent is in the eye of the donator. From the TAY side, a donation has to be simply a donation, freely given.

wapiti_bob, your sponsorship idea is probably the form that any advertising from local shops would take. I would hope to keep such advertising low-impact, but it would not be able to be completely view-optional as for advertising in the affiliate board (pay-per-performance). Such sponsorship has the potential to provide a steady stream of income that would not be so subject to the uncertainties associated with donations or pay-per-performance advertising. That could make my life easier and give me more time to enhance the site rather than fund raise. I've still got work to do on this, though.

Charles,

Thanks for all your efforts. Having been hanging around here since the early days, I have grown to appreciate what this site represents. I love that I can go to TAY and read actual paragraphs rather than one sentence gonzo speak. This is a great site and whatever you decide to do I am cool with. It is your gig and ultimately your decision. It speaks highly of you that you are seeking everyones opinions. Good luck.