Looking for some knowledge

Pete - glad to hear the thread hijack is at least somewhat useful.

Nate - I appreciate that you're asking questions. I'm a big fan of questioning conventional wisdom. In this case, I continue to be convinced of the CW on probing. If someone is deeper than my probe will reach (I'm with Tim on the 3 meter probe), stats show that it's highly unlikely we'll get them out alive. And that it will take a super long time to find them with digging. Experience with drills tells me that if a pack with beacon is buried a few feet deep, doing a spiral probe pattern around the beacon-found bulls-eye is fast enough to ensure that the "victim" gets air in under 2 minutes from start of search, whereas digging alone sometimes is perhaps a few seconds faster, but sometimes is multiple minutes slower (this is across about 20 or so people who have been involved in said drills). So in my mind, it's about elimininating the worst case risk of digging alone.

Regarding your question of "if the probe isn't finding them, when will you dig?" I'd say that I'd only flip in this direction after a long time. I believe, based on a mix of drill experience and stats on recoveries, that in realistic "live recovery" situations proper probing is more likely in this case to find the right spot than desperate digging. Again, the only place where I'd imagine the "dig instead of probe" technique to be faster would be when the victim is so close the surface and your "beacon bulls-eye" that the probing only adds a few seconds of time.

You bring up an interesting point about possibly knowing how close the victim is to the surface based on your beacon reading - this may prove out over time to save more than just a few seconds, but failing some pretty strong evidence in that direction, I'm a big fan of keeping my rules and decision tree for hectic situations as simple as possible - there's good evidence from many different types of "stress performance" situations that the more you can practice a single path, the more likely you are to be able to execute flawlessly, and as you add in more decision points, the more likely that people will make a mistake (this can be countered with extensive practice, as sports shows, but how many of us practice moderately deep multiple burials on a twice-weekly basis?). I'm wondering if any avy professionals on the board have a take on this?

Jim,

Thanks for jumping into this discussion, and for the information based on your extensive experience and practicing. I don't think we'd act all that differently in a rescue situation. I might quit probing sooner than you if it didn't turn up a strike (depending on other information available), or skip it altogether if it's a relatively shallow burial, that's about the extent of it. I will probe if it seems to be a deep burial, but not indefinitely. I'll practice probing next chance I get, it's been awhile and I could use refreshing on what a strike feels like.

The suggestion I make that you don't have to use your probe all the time will not be an effective topic to focus on for anyone learning avalanche rescue or wanting to improve their ability to rescue.

In my experience there are a lot of things that don't necessarily receive much consideration during practice that add significantly to search times: fumbling for transceiver under multiple layers, difficulty moving efficiently over debris, difficulty moving effectively while monitoring transceiver, difficulty skiing without poles, inability to kick-turn, removing skis too early in search, descending below victim... these are probably more valuable considerations to pass on to Pete.

Incidentally, did I mention that the patroller who suggested this to me was constantly in hot water for questioning protocol, and was eventually relieved of duty due to something I don't know the exact details of, but that may be described as a lapse in judgement.

You raise a key point - practice a bunch, and do it in as real a situation as you can concoct. Hanging out with your beacon out with your back turned while your pal stuffs his beacon in a stuff sack down under 4 inches of snow on a firm walkable surface is good for getting the basics of the beacon down, but not for all the other stuff we've both mentioned. It's great to have a group have to decide on the spot who is going to direct everyone, it's great to do it on a hill, etc.

Pete , the Mountaineer's are putting on an additional Avy Awareness course this season ....It will consist of an evening lecture on April 3rd at Mercer Island Com. Cntr. and a half day FT at Snoqualmie on April 5th cost is 35 or 40 bucks

e-mail me for additional info seems like just what you and your buddy need...Jerry White

Thanks again for the course, JW. You guys packed in about as much as one can reasonably expect to fit into one lecture.

Nate, most transceivers (?all) work via induction lines. At 20' there is no way you know where a person is buried. You can test that by simply standing 20' from a transceiver on the surface and seeing where your direction arrow points. With your method, that's the direction you would be digging.....

Of course I always preceed a discussion of avy safety with "The best avy safety is to avoid avy threat exposure". But of course that is not 100% possible if you are going to be out there.

If you are going to purchase an avy beacon, by all means consider a three antenna model. I have two beacons. One is the BCS Tracker and the newer one is the Pieps DSP. We see a lot of BCS Trackers because they are simple to use and have those nice bright red arrows. Yes, using the Tracker takes you in a curved route to the target, following the flux lines. However, the Pieps DSP has the three antenna system and amazingly follows a pretty straight route. The Pieps distance indicator shuts off at 2 meters. But you can be pretty assured that when distance shuts off that the target in right in front of you. Sweeping back in forth across the target can give you some confirmation.

I think that, lacking much discipline, I would start digging pretty immediately, because a lot of victims find themselves buried at about three feet down. Best bet is that you have several partners who can both probe and dig. It is easy to do beacon practice... but harder to do probing practice. I guess I need to do that in order to have any sense that I would know what I am doing.