Looking for some knowledge

Thanks for your consideration of this seemingly unconventional suggestion. I thought this was a stupid suggestion, too. Then I just tried it and found that the probe was not necessary in many recoveries. I am not anti-probe, I would get my probe out if I thought the transceiver was not going to get me close enough.

I expect a shallow burial based on the size of the slide, a guess as to the depth of the debris, transceiver signal and some understanding of how transceiver signals work, and from practicing.

Is the concern about collapsing someone's air gap valid? How close to the victim would you need to be to do that? While it may be disconcerting to the victim, isn't it a sure sign that rescue will come soon? My thought is that there are too many variables to bother pussy-footing around worrying about that (is there an air gap? where is the victim's head? will body weight collapse the debris?), I am going to put myself in the most effective position to move a lot of snow in a hurry.

I would agree that most important is to not hesitate, so if something works for you and you're confident with the method, go with it. My main point is that it's worthwhile to consider and test possibilities which contradict what you already know, or have been taught.

So here's my followup question to your question: if you believe you can be relatively certain of where the victim is and how deep he/she is buried, how much extra time does it actually take to confirm that with a quick bit of probing?

Worst case - you are alone or in a small group so add a short bit of time to assemble the probe (if it takes significant time, you either have the probe in the wrong spot in your pack or you need to practice assembling it quickly!!) before searching (as group size increases, you reach a point where it's likely good to not cluster-f&*^ the scene with too many people beacon searching so this doesn't add any time to your critical path in this situation), and then it takes a few extra seconds beyond that to confirm that you have indeed found the bulls-eye with the beacon alone. What's lost if you are wrong in your assessment of depth and location? Likely far more precious time.

Another few questions - When and how will you decide it's time to assemble and use the probe? Will you be as certain of location/depth in the stress of a real burial situation as you are when you're doing a drill? Will you be certain of how deep the snow has piled up if it's deep enough to fully bury the victim? Or might you get a little confused, to the point where some confirmation from the probe is helpful. Are you positive of the answers?

Based on drills I've done, I'd request that if I'm fully buried, please keep it simple and consistent and probe for me once you think you know where I am!!

Jim,
I don't disagree with any of your comments. I can't know how long it will take to locate the victim by probing. If it only takes a few seconds, as you suggest, you are only confirming what you already "know" but are not yet willing to believe. If it takes longer, how long would it be before you abandon probing and start moving snow to get yourself closer to the victim? Is the inconclusive probe "panic factor" potentially equivalent to digging past the victim if you've skipped probing? If you do dig past your victim, most likely they are upslope from you (of course, not necessarily) and you can confirm this by checking signal and/or by probing. At this time you should be a whole lot closer. If you are off by a little bit, how much time have you wasted by excavating a bunch of snow very close to where the victim is? I don't think a whole lot.

I believe your point is that, if probing is done efficiently and a strike you have confidence in comes within a reasonable amount of time, the time spent probing is well worth the additional confidence and improved probability that you're beginning to dig in the best location. Perfectly rational, I don't disagree.

My point is that it may be possible to eliminate this step to save some amount of time that will vary in each situation.

If you are on top of 20' of debris and not receiving a strong transceiver signal, will you start to probe? how long will you probe before you decide you need to start digging to more accurately locate the victim? If you are on top of 20' of debris and receiving a very strong signal, and if you believe already that it will take less than a minute to probe to locate the victim, why would you bother to do it? Transceiver signal may be giving you false indication of depth due to funky orientation, or you may be led astray due to signal contour, and those are strong arguments in favor of probing. But, if you are receiving a very strong signal, you are right on top of them. Alternatively, if they are buried quite deep it is possible that it may take an awfully long time to probe for them conclusively, yah?

I will absolutely get my probe out if you were buried, it's important to me that my partners have confidence I will extract them. But it is possible that the probe is just a tool that may or may not be useful in a rescue. I appreciate the dialogue, hope to see you out there.
Kind regards,
Nate

Nate, most transceivers (?all) work via induction lines. At 20' there is no way you know where a person is buried. You can test that by simply standing 20' from a transceiver on the surface and seeing where your direction arrow points. With your method, that's the direction you would be digging.....

Nate, most transceivers (?all) work via induction lines. At 20' there is no way you know where a person is buried. You can test that by simply standing 20' from a transceiver on the surface and seeing where your direction arrow points. With your method, that's the direction you would be digging.....

Yes Russ, I know this. I haven't been able to find a directional arrow on my transceiver yet, but I will keep probing till I find it . All I ask is that you consider the possibilities I am raising, and be willing to experiment on your own. I thought the very suggestion I have raised was stupid when it was first passed on to me by a middle-aged pro patroller. I refused to consider that something I was taught to do and had practiced was not absolutely necessary. Open mind, open heart, yadda yadda.

I thought this would be a pretty straightforward discussion, but am afraid now that it is going to create confusion. Sorry to hijack your thread Pete, this can't have been very helpful, it is all much simpler than we're making it sound.
Respectfully,
Nate

No worries, Nate. Great discussion. It's actually something my friend and I were discussing (the usefulness of probes). Obviously, they're useful and mandatory but they can be used in different ways and in different situations too.