Subaru 05' Outback and newer, DANGEROUS ON ICE!

I think this points to a real problem, and I do hear what you are saying. Unless you are a particularly bad driver (which it sounds like you are not), I think that the tires cannot be blamed for that.

The stock tires that come with new cars usually are useless. So often they put "performance" tires on new cars and those are only good on dry pavement. Real grabby on the dry, but soft rubber means you will replace them much sooner than real tires. With a '95 car if you are still running those first tires, they would be bald by now.

I drive a '93 Legacy wagon and that thing goes anywhere. Never bought snow tires for it, only decent all season tires. I drive Stevens and other passes all the time (every weekend for the last three years) and have never had the slightest problem. Typically the passes are in decent shape, but if there is less than 4 inches of fresh on the road the car climbs fine. I have never felt the need to use the chains I bought for them, except once in Redmond of all places.

When there is packed wet snow or black ice, the traction is of course weak at best. With care this is no problem if driving slow enough. With true sheet ice on hills, NOTHING will work except for chains (best) and studs (ok, if not worn down from months of street driving).

Subaru wagons, pre-95 anyways, are by far the best snow machine I have ever driven and that is without show tires.

I do believe that my very underpowered wagon makes the difference, since there is no way I can spin the tires going up that hill after the hairpin even with the pedal to the floor. But that does not sound like your problem.

I would certainly check out the recall idea on the transmission. And if you are still running on the original tires (unlikely at this point) then get good all season tires, or if you want, snow tires (I have no issue with snow tires, I just have never needed them in 15 years of driving the passes, even when chains were required. I know what my car can do, and long before I got to a point on the drive where it got too hairy, I would then put chains on. Never happened so far.)

Drive carefully, and check the traction from time to time. I often will engage the brakes gradually and forcefully, briefly to the slipping point to gauge the amount of traction that I have. I do this when I am clear of traffic, but it tells me what the road and car are capable of regarding stopping and speed in real time and I use that info to adjust my driving habit at the time.

Been lurking for a long time, but thought I'd post on this one.

For the purposes of this discussion, it is important to describe in detail EXACTLY how your car is equipped because it is probably one (or several combined) of those specifics which are contributing to the problems.

We have a 2005 Outback VDC and it is the best snow car I have ever seen. It has the clearance of an Explorer, the comfort of an Audi and the reliability (?) of a Subaru.

In our case, the car has a 6 cyl engine with the 5 speed automatic that can be shifted manually. It was delivered with badly out of allignment wheels that wore out the OEM tires after 15K miles, but the dealer made good on it and we now have 25K miles on the replacement OEM tires (Potenza 225/55 x 17). The tires are labeled M+S but without the snowflake ... obviously these are all-weather tires ... as much as we use the car to get to the mountains in winter, most of its miles are racked up on interstate highways. Snow tires created all kinds of vibration issues at highway speeds.

The H6 VDC model has electronic stability control, which will add power (or brakes) to any wheel that is breaking loose in order to keep the car going straight. There is a disable switch on the stability control, if for some reason one needed that. The six cylinder engine is a good combination of enough power to motor up the passes with ease, but not so powerful (like the turbo model) as to break the wheels loose when accelerating.

The manual function of the transmission, like most ATs, allows the driver to hold it in a desired gear, in case you want to use the engine to brake going downhill or if you find yourself annoyingly right at a shift point and the AT can't decide which gear is best. Also, the manual mode allows the driver to force the car into a higher gear than it would normally use, thus keep ing the torque to the wheels moderated.

With 225/55X17 tires there is precious little space in the wheel well for chains, so we don't have them. Some day I'll encounter a chains only situation, but I never start out in weather that bad so I hope it never happens to me. Incidentally, do all you folks with AWD carry two sets of chains? If not, where do you mount them? Or do you only carry them for show?


Under almost any driving situations, the tires never slide. Only when I am testing the surface for slipperiness, and then it is only with the brakes. Once in a great while someone ahead of me goes into an uncontrollable spin (maybe that's Bryan) and I'm forced to take evasive tactics ... I let the VDC keep the car going straight, while I try to get out of the way of the spinning SUV. I have to try very hard to get the car to fishtail ... it is possible but it takes a deliberate act.

Here are a few of my suggestions for safe winter driving.

1. Go slow. You sort of have to anyway because of chain restrictions and other slower drivers. And pay attention, especially to the road surface.

2. Practice avoidance maneuvers in the parking lot ... that way you have some idea about what the car is going do as it breaks into a skid.

3. Keep one or two tires on any pavement you can find. That tends to keep the car going straight. I constantly am trying to feel for slipperiness on the road surface. Get an outside thermometer.

4. Don't overlap a car you are overtaking for any longer than necessary. He (like Bryan) may be having a fishtail problem.

5. Get new tires. Nothing helps the handling of a car like new tires. It is all well and good to get lots of miles out of your tires, but treat yourself, and your passengers, to some safety. If you're going to do a lot of winter driving, get the best snow tires you can afford. Be wary of wide tires ... they have to push away a lot of snow and it doesn't work very well. Don't be tempted to get studded tires. They are better than non-studded tires in only a very few, rare circumstances, and they are WORSE than NST on wet pavement. Think about the ratio of glare ice / wet pavement you drive and decide whether it pays off. There should be a large tax on studded tires, but that would only happen in a ideal world.


Just thought you'd like to know about an '05 OB that works well.

The wide tires thing is a big one. Everyone puts really wide tires on their cars and trucks these days and it kills the snow performance. I went down just one inch in width (10.5" to 9.5" on a Ranger) and it made a huge difference. For an Outback I would try and find something 225mm or narrower. look at what the rally cars are using -- tall skinny tires.

RE: studs, I have heard rave reviews of Green Diamond Tires. They are retreads, but very high quality ones. The basic idea is that small carbide granules are embedded in the tread. As the tread wears, new ones are exposed and act as mini studs. These can be driven all year and don't screw up the pavement like studs do. For the wet-to-ice-to-snow-and-back driving we can get around here, they would be ideal.

If you want to get into the whole tire thing.  I have a friend who works for a Yokohama tire manufacturing plant in Roanoke, VA.  He explained that tire manufacturers actually loose money on tires for new cars and have the accounts for brand recognition.  That being said, the plants make new cars tires especially for new cars - not as well as the big $$$$ tires you buy in the show rooms.  So basically the tires that come with your new car are crap, made to much lower specifications and should be replaced ASAP after buying your car.  This comes from a manager who actually makes the tires.

Well, that's my .5 cents

I had the same problem with my '05 Outback with the automatic.  Same stuff happened to me a few times last year driving over Stevens Pass.  I was getting passed by all sorts of cars and felt like I was barely in control. It didn't do it in every snowy situation I was in, but seemed like it only did it when the car was more loaded than usual, like say 3-4 people and gear, but I don't know if that could even cause the problem.  Maybe it was just certain conditions. Still, it shouldn't happen. Anyway, I got some better tires, (studless snow tires instead of the stock ones) and the problem got better, although I still noticed it once again this year, again with quite a load in the car.  I'm glad you started this post, Brian, because I thought I was a little crazy for slipping around in my Subie!

Matt

Per the original post, if you take your foot off the gas while on ice ( "off throttle" , "downhill stretches" ) and your wheels are not engaged (.i.e. coasting and not putting on the gas)  there is a higher probability of skidding and gliding on the ice... some sort of physics thing... I learned the hard way rolling a Suburban in Alaska ! ... yes, different car, long story... ( collecting road-kill Moose for a Seattle Sculptor )

Also ...it could be the tires..... ( and to politely suggest, maybe the driving too, slow down !)

Further up the thread "Blizzak's" ( Michelin ) were mentioned. These tires are -the- tires for snow and ice. I bought some for my 2001 VW Eurovan ( automatic) which is front wheel drive and they just rule, I have been up and down the passes in deep snow and ice with no problems. Make sure to have proper inflation too, which really does count ( and keep your foot on the gas ).

Another thing that was mentioned is to take your car out of any "smart" traction control. The VW's have an "ESP" , I turn that off and have way more control in standard drive. I also use the lower gears in deep snow situation. I have put chains on once ( what a pain ) only because the trooper insisted ! I usually plead ignorance, wave to the troopers and have no problems....

Yep, different car ( my VW ) ...Yet, I used to have a AWD Legacy 95 ( which ruled in the snow ), had some Michelins for that too.

... But my point is that tires are the most important part of your car and keeping power to the wheels helps on ice. Yet ice is always unpredictable so slow down too !

I too have had lots of Mountain driving experience in living in the mountains of Colorado (Nederland) as well Washington for last 18 years. Big O has Blizzaks, they are pricey but I will use them this winter then switch back to the touring tires for summer ( Big - O changes them for free )

my 2 cents