Snowmobiles Where They Shouldn't Be- Discussion

I think keeping a thread for documentation is a great idea. It's a start, at least.<br>Larry R makes a good point about the difficulty of enforcement, especially if it is to lead to criminal charges. However, the FS did show us how many resources can be diverted from it's day-to-day activities like trail maintenance and road repair for parking enforcement under that ridiculous parking permit Fee Demo.<br>Sadly, I doubt backcountry skiers can generate the type of political pressure like the American Recreation Coalition, which helped create the Fee Demo. The only viable option may be to get the biler community to police itself by threatening to close off snow machine access to entire non-wilderness areas, which are used to access the wilderness areas. <br>It's doubtful that any major redirection of enforcement resources will occur under our current Administration (think Yellowstone), but all the more reason to start documenting infractions now, so that there is a buildup of political pressure in place when Bush is voted out.

Here is a recent related article.<br><br> www.tahoedailytribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...ws/104230005/-1/NEWS

It sounds like some folks want to do with the Teanaway what was done to NF Tieton- make it ungroomed skier only. If you work towards keeping me and my dogs off of roads, much less wilderness areas, then we need to talk. Otherwise, I've encountered errant 'bilers before and I am willing and able to take it to whatever level they wish.

The following are posts on this topic which have been moved here from another thread to consolidate them.<br><br>[hr]<br>From Gaper_Jeffey:<br>Charles, Thanks for providing this thread. Marcus Libkind, a Sierra XC Ski book author and extremely vocal opponent of snowmobiles, maintains a "User Conflict Database" of snowmobile violations. You and others concerned about this important issue may wish to use it:<br><br> www.snowlands.org/issues/conflicts/tracking.html

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<br><br>From Charles:<br>Gaper_Jeffey, thanks for the link. Do you know if Snowlands handles reports from out of the California/Nevada area? I couldn't see a way to view all of the reports they have received, so maybe a thread like this could be useful because the info will be available to everyone?<br><br>This is from the Snowlands web site:<br>

Situations which promote Òuser conflictÓ must be resolved in favor of the lower impact user group. ThatÕs the law!

<br>Does anyone know more about this law?<br><br>I also found this explanation of "user conflict" on that site:<br>

If your recreation experience was adversely impacted, that is Òuser conflict.Ó You need not be run over! You need not have even seen a snowmobile. Damage to Nordic-trails or finding snowmobile tracks in the Wilderness can be conflict.

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<br><br>From Larry_R:<br>Hi Charles<br><br>Thanks so much for taking on this challenge!<br><br>I have some reservations about posting violations of voluntary closure areas under the heading 'snowmobiles where they shouldn't be' because as I understand it, they still have a legal right to be there. Maybe separate slot for these reports. <br><br>This winter, as in the past, snowmobile violations of the voluntary closure of FS Road 4315, which ascends Sasse Ridge were too numerous to count, but there was one incident that seemed particularly telling, and is still irksome to me.<br><br>At the start of this road, the FS maintains a number of signs that indicate that this is a voluntary snowmobile closure, and in particular there are two standard diamond shaped signs with the skier logo indicating that this is a ski trail. One is located at the start of the road, and the next is at the junction with the prepared ski track.<br><br>Here is part of an Email I sent to the FS at the time:<br><br>As I started skiing up to my usual campsite Tues AM, Dec 30 [2003] I noticed that the<br>'blue diamond' sign post near the start of road 4315 [at the trail junction] appeared to be missing. But<br>then the cause became all too apparent: A single snowmobile track now covered by<br>maybe 2 inches of snow, diverting from the usual packed track, went right across<br>where the sign was, and then back onto the track. The top half of the pole with<br>attached sign was down flat off to the side, with several inches of snow<br>covering. The remaining lower half of the pole was broken off at snow level, and<br>was dead center in the snowmobile track. The driver had a good aim!"<br><br>Perhaps the person was 'just having fun' but this incident can easily be taken as intimidation; that skiers don't belong in this area, etc.<br><br>LR<br><br>

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<br><br>From Charles:<br>Larry, you are probably right about the "voluntary closure" areas. After looking at the Snowlands site, I'm wondering what our biggest complaint is: snowmobiles trespassing into Wilderness Areas, or actual (live) skier-snowmobile interactions? I have a feeling that it is the former for the type of skiing people on this board do, but that might not be right.<br><br>If anyone has contact info for the different Wilderness Areas with regard to this topic, could you post in this thread? I will copy the info to the contact post near the top of this thread.<br><br>

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<br><br>From pbelitz:<br>Does the inside of the crater of Baker count as 'off limits'? Jeff and I did the Boulder-Park Cleaver over the weekend and witnessed two 'biles INSIDE the crater. I was hoping that they'd fall into a fumarole, but no such luck. I hate those things. Ê&gt;<br><br>

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<br><br>From username:<br>

Does the inside of the crater of Baker count as 'off limits'? Jeff and I did the Boulder-Park Cleaver over the weekend and witnessed two 'biles INSIDE the crater. I was hoping that they'd fall into a fumarole, but no such luck. I hate those things.  &gt;

<br><br>Tell me you got pictures?

No, I figured it wouldn't do any good. I considered mooning them, but I had summit fever.

Would there be anyway that signage could be used to help the snowmobilers understand where the wilderness boundaries are at?<br><br>The signage in Washington does appear to be very good when it comes to marking the wilderness areas. I know we have maps and what not, and a person be all accounts is supposed to know where these places are.<br><br>I've been to places in Montana where the wilderness is marked with "orange signs" in the heavily traveled areas so you know exactly where it is at and you can stay out.<br><br>Anyways, just an idea to help educate people who could possible be making a mistake and accidentally riding their snowmobiles where they are not supposed to.<br><br>I personally feel most people obey the laws (snowmobiliers included) it's just a few bad apples that make it bad for everyone.

Hiker: I agree that most snowmachiners like to follow the rules, at least whenever they're made clear. To some extent, resentment of snow machines involves the fact that they're loud, smelly and in other respects antithetical to the sort of experience for which many participants in this particular forum are searching. I assume you understand that part, and that neither you nor we need to belabor the point. <br><br>Aside from all that, I am intrigued by the possibility that snowmachiners might actually not be aware of the boundaries beyond which they're forbidden on the south side of Mt. Baker. Do you think this is a major factor in the many boundary violations up there? If so, what would you suggest doing to better educate sledders? Bear in mind that massive snows in that area (and the fact that the glaciers are in constant downhill flow) would make it impractical to signpost those boundaries. <br><br>I ask out of genuine interest. Thanks in advance for whatever input you've got.<br><br>Enjoy,<br><br>Mark