New Bullion Basin lift, upgrade to High Campbell..

. ....Are you more special than me???

That's not saying much Scottie. Please don't insult Micah like that.

When I met Scotsman in the lift line a couple years ago waiting for the chairs to open it was a friendly discussion and I had good impressions. As a person who just laid out close to 9 K helping my 85 year old, still skiing Dad fight a wrongful property theft, I may not have the financial resources that others do. In fact it's going to be a lean year for lift serviced skiing and I will, for that reason be taking a lot of my turns in the B.C. So with my 51 years of skiing under my belt, paying my way very frequently, and supporting ($$$) CM since their inception, I too should be categorized and find myself targeted by your rant ? Dude, I can hardly believe the good folks at TAY want to hear much more of your "opinion" on this. We are a community of backcountry skiiers with much tolerance to the "losses" you seem to poke fun at. You have affordability to posess a seasons pass and then complain about others who in many cases climb because it's what they can afford. I'll agree with skinning up a downhill run when the area is in operation, gotta use better sense than to create risk to others / yourself but I take exception to everything else you said.

I don't agree Rippy.
The thread is appropriately placed in the lift area posting area and the subject is about New Bullion Basin lift. So even though there is a vast community of backcountry folks on TAY, this is placed in the right spot to talk about it. The thread crosses both BC and Lift operations ideas and opinions. I don't get it, if you don't like what you are reading, stop reading it and move on.

I realize that I'm sounding like a blowhard here, but What gets me most is that when action was needed to write appropriate responses to the Forest Services decision, where were the people that are up in arms now???
It just blows my mind, maybe some were to young, maybe others are transplants, but if folks that have been skiing here for a substantial period of time did not respond to the Crystal's FS ROD then who is there to blame, but the person who did not act! Was it just not interesting enough to maybe look into?
The letters to respond were equal across the board on both sides of the fence.
While I will not deny that money usually has the upper hand, it goes both ways. There are taxes paid back to the state for all the services too.
I just get unsettled when those that gripe did zero to make a difference either way when the opportunity presented itself.

Thanks for your reply Scotsman. I often find your posts (and those of pwnbrit, rip) provocative -- some of the most enjoyable material here on TAY. I would like to reply to your points. I would also like to point out that I have never been to Crystal (would love to ski there and hope to some day), I'm just arguing about the role of the ski area in American culture.

1) I  am a BC skier as well and I do not think all  BC skiers are freeloading hippies, but I'm sure a small minority are and not that there is anything wrong with being a hippie but there is with freeloading.

The morality of freeloading is a subjective matter for sure. I do not think freeloading is wrong per se, and I don't feel like any corporation is owed $$ because I choose to ski from a certain road. I don't expect Crystal to give me free food/beer or free lift rides, but I do expect them to let me park a reasonable sized vehicle in a reasonable manner and ski in such a way that does not hamper their lift operations.

2)There are private buildings at the bottom of Crystal Boulevard that are private structures( homes) built on public land , rented by the owners who did the capital improvements. I think if you extended your logic and tried to use their toilet and park in their driveways  they would rightly call the police. Just because it is rented public land does not give you the right to use it. If you have a problem with that concept you should talk to the USFS not CM. There is no difference between the two examples I give you only the fact that you insist ( because applying logic gives an answer you don't want to accept) in your belief otherwise.

I agree that the scenarios are equivalent; I typically thinking leasing public land for houses is a bad idea.

3) It is not a question as to wether Crystal will remain profitable despite freeloaders, ticker poachers and parking spot freeloaders. It is a question of fairness.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  It's like a story I head a long time ago when a gas station put up the wrong price by a factor of ten. People e-mailed each other and went and got gas there knowing it was a mistake. They did nothing illegal but IMHO it was wrong. I would have pointed out the correction to the gas station owner and paid the proper price. But that's me. Corporations have rights as well and should be treated fairly unless they themselves are corrupt.

I agree that it is a question of fairness. Personally, I would have filled up for cheap w/o wringing my hands .... if I tricked him I might feel bad, but if he set his pumps wrong....  I also hold the opinion that it is fair for an operating ski area to make minor accommodations for other user groups using nearby access.

4) Things change and prime winter access to Bullion  may be compromised.  Such is life. We may lose heli skiing in the NC if the ALPS project gets approved. Such is life. Again why not try an improve the winter access opportunities by getting the MRNP to plow to White River in Winter.  A smaller but very successful project was adopted at Hurricane Ridge for all week access.

I think improving access away from ski areas is a great idea.

5) If you use Crystal Mountain  Facilities to access the BC you should pay for them . I do.. why shouldn't you. Are you more special than me???

No one forced you to buy a pass. Do you think you should be able to buy access to shared (public) resources?

Thanks for the discussion.

Well rippy, I hardly think it was a rant. A person gave their perspective and I gave mine. They are different and I think you have fallen into the trap of calling all those that have different views from you a ranter. A common occurance on TAY and  in America at the moment, alas.
I have empathy for your financial stress at the moment and respect the care you are showing your elder family members but that does not change the economic reality of the situation.
If you use an entity's private capital infrastructure you should pay for that use at a fair price.

I think $25 for parking at crystal and using their infrastructure to access the top of Bullion Basin is a fair price, I think $10 is too low but that's only my opinion. Additionally, I am honest enough to admit that I am selfish and I don't want to share my BC runs with any more people than I have too. Very selfish I admit and a view held by many I know on this site but  who are probably less forthright in expressing their views in public . I don't give a shit and this frees me to be honest about my views even if I know they will probably be unpopular.

If the expansion cuts down on skiers who won't buy a ticket to access East Peak and Cement basin that is fine by me. If the reason they do not buy a ticket is they don't like corporations or giving their money to CM then I have no sympathy for them. If the person can't truly afford a $25 ticket because of financial stress then I do have sympathy for them but there is not a lot I can do to help. If the person won't buy a $25 ticket because they can't afford it and then buys beer and cigarettes or wine for dinner or a Starbucks every day then I would suggest they have prioritized their expenditures and skiing isn't that important to them. However even if that comes to pass( and I'm sure it won't as Crystal will I'm sure recognize that a hiking path to East Peak is kinda grandfathered in and something will be worked out) there are other areas where BC access is possible and there should be more.

As to skiing for 51 years.... so what .. does that entitle you to something... is there a seniority clause somewhere???

As to giving your money to CM since its inception... well I think that is significant and that CM should have a way to reward those that buy tickets and season passes year after year.... Like a loyalty reward or frequent flier program sort of thing.

And finally as to you being offended by my views, you are entitled to be offended just as I am entitled to be offended by the assumption that because you profess poverty and 51 years of skiing it gives you the right to be treated any differently than me who has 8 years of skiing and some disposable income to spend on skiing. Life's a competition and it can be tough at times.

As to Joedabaker's comments regarding the non participation and then whining about the outcome he's dead on. When BC access from the Crystal Boundary was denied by the MRNP a few years back, he and a few others did something about it and got it overturned. When the public input regarding the BB and East Peak chair was open, he and others did some thing about it.
As I've said before BC skiers are an apathetic group of handwringing whiners who like to gripe after the event and bemoan the "good old days "and get excited about posts regarding the history of skiing and can hardly contain their excitement when Lowell post a picture of some dude from the 1950's in a now closed ski area. Interesting but for me, personally, history has only ever been useful to learn what mistakes were made so they don't get repeated and I think the future far more important. Although I strongly disagree with the attempts of the ALPs project and WAC's wilderness non motorized access and similar advocacy and I will use my meager and ineffectual voice to fight them tooth and claw, I grudgingly admire that they are trying to do something.

The expansion of BC use staggering and this state needs new winter access points to spread the load and avoid conflict.... so stop looking back....do something about it or STFU.

I'll respect your positions gentlemen. Interestingly, I had no idea there was a public input process concerning this new expansion. In fact, the thread was first knowledge I had. Oh, think it's "Lifes tuff, get a helmet" or so my nephew says. Cheers to ya and Powder to the People !