Nov 3 Washington Pass
11/15/10
WA Cascades East Slopes North
8919
23
Shame and Humiliation in the North Cascades.
Tour Statistics:
Participants: Scotsman and Dromond.
Destination: WA Pass.
Driving Time: nearly 10 hrs.
Snow conditions: 10" frozen , rained on Elephant Snot with crust.
Coverage: Every boulder and fallen tree outlined in stark relief.
VF skinned: 800 VF
VF skied: 0
VF skinned( downhill)= 800 VF
Turns made= 0
Distance glided= one 10' section
Best sarcastic quote from Dromond: Thank god our driving wasn't affected by getting tired from skiing power"
Best sarcastic quote from non participant: "Scotty, there is a fine line between boyish enthusiasm and senile dementia.
Tour Statistics:
Participants: Scotsman and Dromond.
Destination: WA Pass.
Driving Time: nearly 10 hrs.
Snow conditions: 10" frozen , rained on Elephant Snot with crust.
Coverage: Every boulder and fallen tree outlined in stark relief.
VF skinned: 800 VF
VF skied: 0
VF skinned( downhill)= 800 VF
Turns made= 0
Distance glided= one 10' section
Best sarcastic quote from Dromond: Thank god our driving wasn't affected by getting tired from skiing power"
Best sarcastic quote from non participant: "Scotty, there is a fine line between boyish enthusiasm and senile dementia.
Why? Where? Thanks for the heads up. No increase in depth the higher you went? No turns???!!! Pics of the nastiness?
author=TobyT link=topic=17822.msg75304#msg75304 date=1288831880]
Why? Where? Thanks for the heads up. No increase in depth the higher you went? No turns???!!! Pics of the nastiness?
Blue Lake TH.
aiming for Cornice of Death.
No significant increase in depth the height we went up. We gave up, every rock, branch, twig exposed. We gave up,,, it was really, really, REALLY bad.
Beautiful weather, hardly a cloud in the sky and surprisingly cold in the shade.
No turns made or possible, we WALKED down with skins on and we were slower than skinning up time.
Black ice on roads, very slippy.
Mountains painted white= primer only, no top coat.
Not ready and won't be without significant new snowfall.
Snowtel telemetry=liar, liar , pants on fire.
Dromond has pics.
Way to take one for the team.
Glad you didn't turn it into a real beating.
It can be a fine line between a challenge and a pain in the ass.
Glad you didn't turn it into a real beating.
It can be a fine line between a challenge and a pain in the ass.
About eight years ago I had a similar outing on the Blue Lake trail. The difference between my experience and yours was that I finished long after dark. And fell into a still-unfrozen pond. There are better places to ski in thin snow conditions.
It never seems to be good up there until the day they close it.
Last year early season (road was still open) I was skiing waist to chest deep powder near lake ann and meanwhile Washington pass had significantly less snow. So sometimes Rainy Pass is better!
Probably due to wind loading on hindsight.
-LR
Last year early season (road was still open) I was skiing waist to chest deep powder near lake ann and meanwhile Washington pass had significantly less snow. So sometimes Rainy Pass is better!
Probably due to wind loading on hindsight.
-LR
author=lrudholm link=topic=17822.msg75314#msg75314 date=1288844359]
It never seems to be good up there until the day they close it.
Last year early season (road was still open) I was skiing waist to chest deep powder near lake ann and meanwhile Washington pass had significantly less snow. So sometimes Rainy Pass is better!
Probably due to wind loading on hindsight.
-LR
Not today! There really is very thin coverage everywhere and I doubt( sure somebody will prove me wrong) there is any decent skiing up there at the moment. We knew BLue Lake TH was going to be crap but rather than turn right around( we were rather dejected) we decided to take our beacons and my husky Chugach for a walk and do "skill development". The skill development of the day was downhill kick turns with skins on. :-[
You are dead on about the good skiing just before it closes. I had a great day up there once ...the day before it closed a few years back, skiing pow in a heavy snowfall. It is the memory of that day that makes me keep trying to hit it right. WA Pass my favorite ski touring destination in WA bar none.
Thanks for sharing your adventure. There will always be another day especially when you return home intact. ;)
author=Scotsman link=topic=17822.msg75317#msg75317 date=1288846074]
You are dead on about the good skiing just before it closes. I had a great day up there once ...the day before it closed a few years back, skiing pow in a heavy snowfall. It is the memory of that day that makes me keep trying to hit it right. WA Pass my favorite ski touring destination in WA bar none.
Mine too!
After growing up in Twisp I've concluded that every backcountry skier in the Methow Valley has a "Story" about skiing on the day they close the pass. Wether its having too drive all way around and down through Stevens pass to make it home or having the snowplow driver cut a path through the hairpin area.
author=Scotsman link=topic=17822.msg75303#msg75303 date=1288830228]
... there is a fine line between boyish enthusiasm and senile dementia.
You know, I've been thinking that since about July!!
Maybe it should be right under the TAY masthead? ;)
I don't know if this even belongs here; it is TURNS all year after all, and we made zero turns. Also, my memory card died so I have no pictures. So sad!
author=Scotsman link=topic=17822.msg75305#msg75305 date=1288832980]
Not ready and won't be without significant new snowfall.
Snowtel telemetry=liar, liar , pants on fire.
That's a long drive for such disappointing conditions. I suppose it's the inevitable regression to the mean of all those "you don't know until you go" times that end up being much better than expected. Thanks for taking one for the team...I had been tempted by the telemetry as well.
At least the weather was nice ? ::)
I am still jealous that you got out! WA pass also haunts me...one of these days.
author=Scotsman link=topic=17822.msg75303#msg75303 date=1288830228]
... there is a fine line between boyish enthusiasm and senile dementia.
Now that I'm officially within the traditional age range for senile dementia and still carrying plenty of boyish enthusiasm on certain days at least, I'm finding that the line is quite fuzzy and includes lots of gray area.
Kudos on carrying the torch and inspiring us all; it's good to be reminded that my misadventures in search of quixotic dreams aren't so far from the norm after all.
I'll remember to pray extra hard for new snow tonight.
Was the snow typical early season bottomless (until the ground), or was it beginning to set up at all?
It's gonna be really hard to not take my skis out this wknd...again...
It's gonna be really hard to not take my skis out this wknd...again...
author=Scotsman link=topic=17822.msg75303#msg75303 date=1288830228]
Shame and Humiliation in the North Cascades.
...
Snow conditions: 10" frozen , rained on Elephant Snot with crust.
Coverage: Every boulder and fallen tree outlined in stark relief.
author=Scotsman link=topic=17822.msg75305#msg75305 date=1288832980]
Snowtel telemetry=liar, liar , pants on fire.
author=andyrew link=topic=17822.msg75345#msg75345 date=1288889446]
I had been tempted by the telemetry as well.
I'm just wondering which telemetry Scotsman thinks was lying to him, and which telemetry andyrew found so tempting.
Looking at the NWAC telemetry, the snow depth was very minimal on Nov 3, only 16" even at the fairly optimal telemetry site (usually located in an open clearing in the forest). That's not enough snow to cover boulders and fallen trees very well, especially not in moderately dense forest near Blue Lake TH where snow depths would be somewhat less.
And that minimal snowpack had been rained on starting at 1700 PST on Nov 1, when the snowdepth peaked at 21" while the temps climbed to 34 °F. It rained for the next several hours, with nearly 0.2" of liquid precip consolidating the snowdepth down to 16", then it warmed up well above freezing on Nov 2 after the rain stopped. Then by sunset on Nov 2, temps again dropped below freezing and everything froze solid overnight. Not much looks tempting in that data, at least not to me.
Based on the telemetry, it seems obvious that the conditions should have been exactly what you found: "rained on Elephant Snot with crust".
Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center
and Washington Department of Transportation
Washington Pass, Washington
Wind sensors unheated and may rime
Equip. temp is prec. gage temp
Prec. gage may record periodic condensation
MM/DD Hour Temp Temp RH RH Wind Wind Wind Equip Hour Total Total
PST F F % % Avg Max Dir Temp Prec. Prec. Snow
6630' 5500' 6630' 5500' 6630' 6630' 6630' 5500' 5500' 5500' 5500'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 30 500 25 29 100 99 5 9 213 57 0 0 6
10 30 600 25 30 100 99 4 8 211 58 0 0 6
10 30 700 24 29 100 99 5 8 206 58 0 0 5
10 30 800 25 30 100 99 3 6 145 59 0 0 5
10 30 900 26 31 100 97 3 4 101 61 0 0 4
10 30 1000 26 32 100 98 4 9 62 61 0 0 4
10 30 1100 27 32 100 96 3 7 106 64 0 0 4
10 30 1200 27 33 99 95 4 8 28 64 0 0 4
10 30 1300 27 33 100 94 5 8 27 63 0 0 4
10 30 1400 28 32 100 98 2 4 27 62 .01 .01 3
10 30 1500 28 32 100 97 0 2 341 61 .01 .02 3
10 30 1600 28 31 100 98 1 3 205 61 0 .02 5
10 30 1700 27 31 100 99 1 3 197 60 0 .02 5
10 30 1800 27 31 100 99 1 3 196 60 .01 .03 6
10 30 1900 28 31 100 98 2 3 208 60 .02 .05 5
10 30 2000 28 31 100 99 3 5 218 60 .01 .06 6
10 30 2100 28 31 100 99 5 8 233 61 .01 .07 7
10 30 2200 29 30 100 98 5 8 229 59 0 .07 237
10 30 2300 29 31 100 99 4 6 201 60 0 .07 237
10 31 0 29 31 100 99 3 5 201 60 0 .07 6
10 31 100 28 31 100 99 3 4 211 60 .01 .08 4
10 31 200 28 31 100 99 4 6 210 61 .01 .09 6
10 31 300 28 31 100 99 4 5 218 60 .03 .12 5
10 31 400 28 31 100 99 5 8 232 60 0 .12 6
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 31 500 29 32 100 100 6 9 234 59 .02 .07 6
10 31 600 27 32 100 100 9 12 234 58 .04 .11 6
10 31 700 27 31 100 98 11 15 232 57 0 .11 6
10 31 800 26 31 100 98 13 19 229 58 0 .11 6
10 31 900 28 30 100 96 13 18 226 56 0 .11 8
10 31 1000 29 32 98 91 11 15 229 59 0 .11 8
10 31 1100 30 34 92 79 10 13 218 66 0 .11 8
10 31 1200 31 36 93 79 7 10 221 78 0 .11 7
10 31 1300 30 33 88 83 8 11 220 68 0 .11 8
10 31 1400 27 34 83 82 8 11 213 67 0 .11 8
10 31 1500 27 33 90 86 8 10 221 65 0 .11 7
10 31 1600 27 31 82 90 9 12 218 60 0 .11 8
10 31 1700 26 30 88 94 9 13 237 58 0 .11 8
10 31 1800 26 30 88 96 10 13 230 58 0 .11 8
10 31 1900 27 29 90 94 12 16 224 57 0 .11 8
10 31 2000 26 29 82 95 12 15 224 56 0 .11 8
10 31 2100 27 29 61 95 13 21 222 56 0 .11 8
10 31 2200 25 29 80 88 15 23 222 56 0 .11 8
10 31 2300 24 29 100 94 13 16 222 56 0 .11 7
11 1 0 25 29 100 98 12 16 229 56 .05 .16 8
11 1 100 28 29 98 98 10 15 229 56 .03 .08 8
11 1 200 28 29 100 99 11 15 238 57 0 .08 8
11 1 300 28 29 98 99 11 15 233 57 .01 .09 8
11 1 400 28 29 100 99 11 14 220 56 .01 .1 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 1 500 29 29 100 99 13 20 219 57 .05 .05 7
11 1 600 30 29 100 99 15 24 221 56 .01 .06 9
11 1 700 29 29 100 99 9 15 211 57 .04 .1 10
11 1 800 30 30 100 99 9 13 200 56 .07 .17 10
11 1 900 31 30 100 98 6 12 195 57 .12 .29 10
11 1 1000 31 31 100 97 2 4 214 58 .12 .41 14
11 1 1100 32 33 100 96 2 7 220 60 .14 .55 14
11 1 1200 32 34 100 96 4 8 229 62 .13 .68 16
11 1 1300 32 33 100 98 4 7 238 58 .13 .81 237
11 1 1400 32 33 100 98 4 8 233 57 .14 .95 20
11 1 1500 32 33 100 99 3 5 226 56 .12 1.07 20
11 1 1600 32 33 100 100 2 5 237 56 .1 1.17 20
11 1 1700 32 34 100 98 2 4 231 54 .02 1.19 21
11 1 1800 32 33 100 100 2 4 234 56 .04 1.23 20
11 1 1900 32 34 100 100 2 4 222 58 0 1.23 19
11 1 2000 32 34 100 100 2 3 226 59 0 1.23 18
11 1 2100 31 34 100 100 2 3 229 59 .01 1.24 19
11 1 2200 30 34 100 100 2 3 234 58 0 1.24 19
11 1 2300 31 34 100 99 2 4 241 57 .01 1.25 19
11 2 0 31 35 100 99 2 3 236 57 .01 1.26 19
11 2 100 32 35 100 100 1 2 236 59 .01 1.27 19
11 2 200 31 34 100 99 0 1 249 60 .02 1.29 18
11 2 300 31 33 100 100 0 1 259 60 .03 1.32 18
11 2 400 31 33 100 100 0 0 101 58 .02 1.34 18
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 2 500 29 33 100 100 0 0 115 59 .01 .01 17
11 2 600 28 33 100 100 0 0 177 58 .01 .02 16
11 2 700 27 32 100 100 0 4 287 58 0 .02 16
11 2 800 27 32 100 100 0 4 287 58 0 .02 17
11 2 900 33 32 100 100 0 2 276 58 0 .02 16
11 2 1000 33 33 100 98 0 2 237 59 0 .02 16
11 2 1100 34 35 100 90 3 9 217 72 0 .02 16
11 2 1200 34 38 87 81 3 6 304 83 0 .02 15
11 2 1300 36 37 88 93 3 6 185 78 0 .02 16
11 2 1400 35 38 79 89 4 8 209 77 0 .02 16
11 2 1500 37 37 73 92 6 9 233 75 0 .02 16
11 2 1600 35 36 58 89 3 6 308 78 0 .02 16
11 2 1700 35 31 66 99 2 5 201 63 0 .02 17
11 2 1800 34 30 70 100 3 10 33 61 0 .02 16
11 2 1900 33 30 67 100 4 10 15 60 0 .02 16
11 2 2000 33 29 71 99 3 6 179 58 0 .02 17
11 2 2100 34 28 64 100 6 11 201 58 0 .02 16
11 2 2200 34 28 64 99 3 6 234 57 0 .02 16
11 2 2300 35 28 53 100 3 7 224 57 0 .02 16
11 3 0 34 28 59 100 2 5 292 56 0 .02 16
11 3 100 38 29 48 100 5 7 6 56 0 .02 16
11 3 200 38 29 43 100 4 8 211 57 0 .02 16
11 3 300 36 29 53 100 4 7 291 57 0 .02 16
11 3 400 37 30 47 100 3 8 338 57 0 .02 16
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 3 500 35 29 49 100 5 7 201 56 0 0 16
11 3 600 36 29 47 99 2 6 207 56 0 0 16
11 3 700 34 29 51 100 2 5 224 56 0 0 16
11 3 800 38 30 38 100 2 6 337 58 0 0 16
11 3 900 42 31 50 100 4 9 351 59 0 0 16
11 3 1000 39 32 56 99 6 10 8 60 0 0 16
11 3 1100 39 35 57 90 5 9 11 78 0 0 15
11 3 1200 42 37 56 89 2 7 2 88 0 0 14
11 3 1300 42 35 57 95 3 6 359 77 0 0 15
11 3 1400 36 36 66 95 5 12 11 75 0 0 15
11 3 1500 44 35 44 96 7 14 8 71 0 0 15
11 3 1600 45 34 39 95 5 12 144 75 0 0 15
11 3 1700 43 32 48 99 5 11 177 61 0 0 16
11 3 1800 41 32 45 100 7 12 96 60 0 0 16
11 3 1900 41 31 46 100 6 12 23 59 0 0 15
11 3 2000 35 31 52 100 3 6 45 58 0 0 15
11 3 2100 36 30 54 99 4 8 9 58 0 0 15
11 3 2200 35 29 51 97 6 10 12 57 0 0 15
11 3 2300 37 29 54 100 1 3 3 58 0 0 15
11 4 0 38 28 63 99 1 6 312 57 0 0 15
11 4 100 41 28 61 100 3 6 216 58 0 0 15
11 4 200 41 28 63 100 4 9 230 57 0 0 15
11 4 300 43 28 67 99 4 8 237 57 0 0 15
11 4 400 41 27 73 100 10 13 243 56 0 0 15
[/tt]
Not 16" only 10".
We think frozen chipmunk sitting on pressure pad.!
But you are right we were fools and reading what we wanted to see not what was actually there. Heuristic trap.
But thanks I love to have my foolishness explained scientifically.
We think frozen chipmunk sitting on pressure pad.!
But you are right we were fools and reading what we wanted to see not what was actually there. Heuristic trap.
But thanks I love to have my foolishness explained scientifically.
author=Scotsman link=topic=17822.msg75397#msg75397 date=1288972573]
But thanks I love to have my foolishness explained scientifically.
It will be on Family Guy next.
Chris, thanks for posting a useful TR, it's always good to read firsthand info, even if it only field-verifies the telemetry. When a trip of mine fails due to weather/snow conditions which differed from expectations, I'm often too mentally exhausted afterwards to bother posting anything, even though it might be helpful to others.
And thanks for replying so civilly, I'm glad my late-night post wasn't misinterpreted as an attack of any sort. I think you've self-flagellated enough now.
By the way, you've also demonstrated that a TR can be useful without pics.
LOL! The snowdepth sensor is actually an ultrasonic distance sensor, looking down at the snowpack from an arm extending from a 20-30 ft tower. The snowdepth = (height of sensor) - (distance measured). Pressure sensors are used on the snow-water-content pillows at SNOTEL sites, though.
The slight discrepancy between 10" vs 16" (which seems large in percentage terms) is likely just due to the more optimal location of the NWAC site in a nice open clearing, and there were probably openings in the forest near Blue Lake TH which had similar totals. But looking back at older data, I noticed this interesting anomaly:
Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center
and Washington Department of Transportation
Washington Pass, Washington
Wind sensors unheated and may rime
5500' site relocated 1 October
MM/DD Hour Temp Temp RH RH Wind Wind Wind Equip Hour Total Total
PST F F % % Avg Max Dir Temp Prec. Prec. Snow
6630' 5500' 6630' 5500' 6630' 6630' 6630' 5500' 5500' 5500' 5500'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 1 500 54 47 48 72 7 13 196 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 600 54 48 52 72 7 10 210 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 700 55 48 53 74 5 9 198 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 800 57 49 52 73 3 6 208 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 900 59 54 55 67 2 4 185 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 1000 57 54 1 2 37 0
10 1 1100 61 51 2 5 168 0
10 1 1200 61 52 4 9 165 0
10 1 1300 64 50 2 7 139 0
10 1 1400 66 43 6 10 189 0
10 1 1500 67 71 38 36 8 10 210 87 0 0 2
10 1 1600 65 71 43 39 8 10 210 89 0 0 2
10 1 1700 61 58 52 67 6 7 218 64 0 0 2
10 1 1800 57 52 56 82 6 8 244 52 0 0 2
10 1 1900 56 48 61 87 7 8 245 47 0 0 2
10 1 2000 55 45 60 89 8 9 238 44 0 0 2
10 1 2100 53 44 66 93 6 9 249 42 0 0 2
10 1 2200 55 43 48 94 7 11 157 41 0 0 2
10 1 2300 53 42 51 95 11 12 129 40 0 0 2
10 2 0 54 41 34 95 8 12 125 39 0 0 2
10 2 100 53 39 32 95 10 14 141 37 0 0 2
10 2 200 54 38 25 93 9 12 134 35 0 0 2
10 2 300 54 37 19 92 11 14 125 34 0 0 2
10 2 400 53 35 20 88 10 12 119 33 0 0 2
So apparently when the site was moved, it resulted in a 2" offset which was never zeroed out. That offset remained at 2" until it actually started snowing on Oct 24. So although I don't think the telemetry was flat-out lying, it certainly wasn't (and still isn't) giving the whole truth about snowdepth either. But errors of +/- several inches on the snowdepth sensor are to be expected at any snow telemetry site, for several reasons. Growing bushes at the base of the tower often make the sensor read non-zero when there is still no snow, and accuracy must wait until the bushes are fully covered. And during high winds, any slight swaying/bending of the tower increases the angle from sensor-to-snowpack away from 90°, thus sometimes increasing the distance measured (= decreasing snowdepth) by a few inches, until winds calm.
And thanks for replying so civilly, I'm glad my late-night post wasn't misinterpreted as an attack of any sort. I think you've self-flagellated enough now.
By the way, you've also demonstrated that a TR can be useful without pics.
author=Scotsman link=topic=17822.msg75397#msg75397 date=1288972573]
Not 16" only 10".
We think frozen chipmunk sitting on pressure pad.!
LOL! The snowdepth sensor is actually an ultrasonic distance sensor, looking down at the snowpack from an arm extending from a 20-30 ft tower. The snowdepth = (height of sensor) - (distance measured). Pressure sensors are used on the snow-water-content pillows at SNOTEL sites, though.
The slight discrepancy between 10" vs 16" (which seems large in percentage terms) is likely just due to the more optimal location of the NWAC site in a nice open clearing, and there were probably openings in the forest near Blue Lake TH which had similar totals. But looking back at older data, I noticed this interesting anomaly:
Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center
and Washington Department of Transportation
Washington Pass, Washington
Wind sensors unheated and may rime
5500' site relocated 1 October
MM/DD Hour Temp Temp RH RH Wind Wind Wind Equip Hour Total Total
PST F F % % Avg Max Dir Temp Prec. Prec. Snow
6630' 5500' 6630' 5500' 6630' 6630' 6630' 5500' 5500' 5500' 5500'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 1 500 54 47 48 72 7 13 196 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 600 54 48 52 72 7 10 210 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 700 55 48 53 74 5 9 198 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 800 57 49 52 73 3 6 208 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 900 59 54 55 67 2 4 185 -6999 0 0 0
10 1 1000 57 54 1 2 37 0
10 1 1100 61 51 2 5 168 0
10 1 1200 61 52 4 9 165 0
10 1 1300 64 50 2 7 139 0
10 1 1400 66 43 6 10 189 0
10 1 1500 67 71 38 36 8 10 210 87 0 0 2
10 1 1600 65 71 43 39 8 10 210 89 0 0 2
10 1 1700 61 58 52 67 6 7 218 64 0 0 2
10 1 1800 57 52 56 82 6 8 244 52 0 0 2
10 1 1900 56 48 61 87 7 8 245 47 0 0 2
10 1 2000 55 45 60 89 8 9 238 44 0 0 2
10 1 2100 53 44 66 93 6 9 249 42 0 0 2
10 1 2200 55 43 48 94 7 11 157 41 0 0 2
10 1 2300 53 42 51 95 11 12 129 40 0 0 2
10 2 0 54 41 34 95 8 12 125 39 0 0 2
10 2 100 53 39 32 95 10 14 141 37 0 0 2
10 2 200 54 38 25 93 9 12 134 35 0 0 2
10 2 300 54 37 19 92 11 14 125 34 0 0 2
10 2 400 53 35 20 88 10 12 119 33 0 0 2
So apparently when the site was moved, it resulted in a 2" offset which was never zeroed out. That offset remained at 2" until it actually started snowing on Oct 24. So although I don't think the telemetry was flat-out lying, it certainly wasn't (and still isn't) giving the whole truth about snowdepth either. But errors of +/- several inches on the snowdepth sensor are to be expected at any snow telemetry site, for several reasons. Growing bushes at the base of the tower often make the sensor read non-zero when there is still no snow, and accuracy must wait until the bushes are fully covered. And during high winds, any slight swaying/bending of the tower increases the angle from sensor-to-snowpack away from 90°, thus sometimes increasing the distance measured (= decreasing snowdepth) by a few inches, until winds calm.
digging deep (or not) here folks. I want PICTURES OF THE MISERY. please.
has anybody seen 'Frozen' yet?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scotsman / Joedabaker
~~~~~2012~~~~~~
Scotsman / Joedabaker
~~~~~2012~~~~~~
author=~Link~ link=topic=17822.msg75500#msg75500 date=1289111214]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scotsman / Joedabaker
~~~~~2012~~~~~~
I think that it is well established that Joes as a people have too much personal integrety to garner significant popular support.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Scotsman/ Palin
~~~~2012~~~~
author=Snow Bell link=topic=17822.msg75503#msg75503 date=1289112592]
I think that it is well established that Joes as a people have too much personal integrety to garner significant popular support.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Scotsman/ Palin
~~~~2012~~~~
Judging by the content and times of your latest posts, I'd say you were definitely up far, far too late last night.
::)
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