April 6, 2011, Crystal backcountry

Silas what was the snow looking like at depth? With the information you have, are you now endorsing Crystal BC as a safe place to wander with this report?

Sorry my posts are brief.  "safety" is different for each person and group. I do not suggest anyone ski or not ski based on my reports. I'm only sharing what we found today.

It's hard for me to armchair it since I have not been out for a few days. But is the fact that Northback, an in bound ski run and South are still closed any indication of how Crystal feels about the avy danger level? If you are going to report skiing where avy hazzards have been going off the hook lately, I would expect more than surface conditions. I want to hear test pit results from your trip. How many people do you think will assume that it is green light skiing from such a casual report? Not trying to hang you out, but I want data to back up your report of going out on in a roulette wheel!
Where someone new to the BC scene reads your initial report and saying... "a couple dudes went out in Crystal BC and said it was killer"... may be exactly that...Killer.
I can guarantee if you post it, they will come.

since when does a trip report have to cater to the lowest common denominator?  safety, as silas aludes to, is not an objective hazard.  the avalanche triangle is weather, snowpack, and terrain with the human factor right in the middle;   terrain traveled through and skied is a choice, as are the many other elements of a ski trip that make up the human factor, and there are always safer choices.  If there is someone out there who thinks after reading this report that they can go big in the crystal bc tomorrow, they are obviously living in a bubble and additional details that silas could provide probably would not be comprehended by such person anyway.  no rules for TR's.

I think Silas did a great job highlighting what he saw, leave it to NWAC for hard data, it is just a TR, not a forecast.

As for Crystal, it went big, with and without explosives, which really tells us in the Crystal BC that the MLK crust still persists.

Thanks for your input Juan, I don't suggest any rules. Just saying if you are traveling in high avalanche danger terrain and reporting it. It would be nice to have some details other than surface conditions. Do you agree that a lot of lurkers here tend to follow or go to where the reports are given?
I can't understand why I'm pandering to the lowest denominator of BC intelligence when we have such a good core of savvy climbers here, but given the circumstances in the last week it seems like a good idea to take it to that level for everyone to hear again. It does not hurt to hear it again. Maybe it strikes me as more critical since I am seeing things locally that I have never seen in 35 years of BC skiing?

I am grateful for Silas report too, because I think expounding on it has brought more awareness of the dangers that are out there.
Maybe I'm overreacting, sorry Silas, but you know what... the message is being heard. I just don't want to be called upon to search for another person this year OK?

author=Mattski link=topic=20452.msg86956#msg86956 date=1302151970]
leave it to NWAC for hard data, it is just a TR, not a forecast.

As for Crystal, it went big, with and without explosives, which really tells us in the Crystal BC that the MLK crust still persists.

Thanks for the input Matt. I would not even rely on NWAC for a reliable report of Crystal's local conditions. NWAC does a great job but it is so vague covering a lot of area on a single report.
I talked with Paul Baugher, Crystal Head of Patrol last week at some extent about Crystals conditions. NWAC had the AVY conditions at considerable, but locally Paul said the the conditions were high in the Crystal area. So there is some discrepancy if you rely on NWAC to base a field report.

totally unerstand where you're coming from, Joe.  just don't think its up to Silas to break it all down in a TR. 

Silas you da man! Sorry to use you here. Just trying to keep people thinking safety, sorry if any of this has hung you out in the wind.

author=Joedabaker link=topic=20452.msg86958#msg86958 date=1302152771]
Thanks for the input Matt. I would not even rely on NWAC for a reliable report of Crystal's local conditions. NWAC does a great job but it is so vague covering a lot of area on a single report.
I talked with Paul Baugher, Crystal Head of Patrol last week at some extent about Crystals conditions. NWAC had the AVY conditions at considerable, but locally Paul said the the conditions were high in the Crystal area. So there is some discrepancy if you rely on NWAC to base a field report.

Seems like great fodder for a thread in random tracks to raise visibility of current conditions and to remind folks of the risk of leaning too hard on NWAC forecasts versus on-the-ground assessments, as well as to clue people in to specifics of what's going on at Crystal per Paul. Thanks for sharing his insights.

author=Joedabaker link=topic=20452.msg86949#msg86949 date=1302146394]
But is the fact that Northback, an in bound ski run and South are still closed any indication of how Crystal feels about the avy danger level?

Ski pole tests revealed a very, VERY well consolidated freeze/thaw crust below about 30cm of fresh snow.  The storms came in wet after the warm up, and the new snow appears to be right-side up and well consolidated to the melt/freeze boiler plate.  Silas's test-slope revealed some movement of the new snow, but nothing planar.  

I've been thinking about how Crystal has handled these snow conditions.  It certainly does speak volumes as to the ambiguity of the snowpack when the pros are concerned enough to drop bombs from helicopters!  I think all the facets culminated to a head when we experienced that warm up; the concern of massive slide potential and a MCI was enough for them to bring out the artillery.  CMSP doesn't screw around with the safety!  This is indeed a memorable snow-pack.

author=~Link~ link=topic=20452.msg86966#msg86966 date=1302159087]
Ski pole tests revealed a very, VERY well consolidated freeze/thaw crust below about 30cm of fresh snow.  The storms came in wet after the warm up, and the new snow appears to be right-side up and well consolidated to the melt/freeze boiler plate.  Silas's test-slope revealed some movement of the new snow, but nothing planar.  

Now that is on the top surface, what Paul Baugher was driving at was the January crust way down. The base has started it's seasonal creep down hill while the top layer is what the new catch phrase trap is being called "Solid". In between is the revival of the faucet layer on the January crust due to the effect of the recent rain warming the snowpack. The two dynamic forces (top and bottom snowpack) are working opposite or each other creating a shear like you would have in like an earthquake fault zone. Holding it's energy until it gets released when either dynamic shifts. It is very difficult to determine what is safe and not you could be digging pits all day and find variance all over the place.
That is how I understood him, correct me if I am wrong on the science, but the physical nature is what is important now. The problem is also when it goes, it's going to go big so chances of survival are very slim.

author=Joedabaker link=topic=20452.msg86970#msg86970 date=1302187122]
The two dynamic forces (top and bottom snowpack) are working opposite or each other creating a shear like you would have in like an earthquake fault zone. Holding it's energy until it gets released when either dynamic shifts.

That's how I understand it, as well.  I had the pleasure of talking with Paul in his office at Crystal a couple of weeks back; an endless fountain of knowledge, he is.  It sure is amazing to contemplate the physics of what's going on under our feet.  I keep running back to Tremper's book to re-read about crusts, snow bonding, weather, creep, and glide.  It's all beginning to make sense.  It sure is scary to think of that seemingly bullet-proof crust stepping down to weaker layers.  It seems impossible, the problem is that it is indeed possible.  Where do we go from here?!  Declare war?!  Invade and occupy the snowpack?!  ??? 

Joedabaker,  I couldn't agree more with you.  Thanks!

Yeah, good stuff, Joe.
Thanks for sharing Paul's insights with us.

And Morningstar, welcome to TAY. :)
We look forward to your feeling free to contribute as you see fit.

The results of the blast that they did off Threeway was HUGE!! Not sure of the Height of the Crown, but it looks like a combo of Cornice and Crown, but it must be over 20ft high. Surprisingly the runout was only to the top of the Damn Fine Forest. Gets one pretty nervous about anything out there with that aspect.

That Threeway shot was impressive. none of those Crystal slides would have been survivable. Of interest tho, the King didn't release at all with the bombs. You can see good size spontaneous slides mid way down treed slopes below threeway also.